Radios and You
 

Radios In Airsoft and You: Basics of Telecommunications

So before I start - I would like to state:
NOTICE : If you disagree with using 4 watt transmitters on the FRS or GMRS bands, or want to challenge the legalities, or are deathly afraid that the police will drop out of the ethosphere and bust you for using overpowered radios, please STOP READING HERE.

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Because people have doubted my advice in the past, I will put this at the top so I don’t have to say it again later.

I grew up in a family of techies, I have spent the last 6 years of my life studying, designing, implementing, using, diagnosing, and repairing radios and related hardware/software. Telephony is my background in schooling, its my career, and hobby. I know what I am talking about.
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As opposed to just command level comms, telecommunications at an individual level has become more and more important in both real and simulated warfare over the past few decades. To achieve this, radios that have specific capacities are used. This guide will be to help you choose a radio system that will allow you to have an effective means of communications in every situation.

I believe that if you have a piece of kit on you, it should have a real function within the confines of your mission, and you should know how it works.
Since everybody should have radios on them in milsims, everybody should have a good base knowledge about them.
This post is to just give anybody reading it a good basic knowledge of what the radios systems are that we use, and how they operate.

-We shall start off with some basic telephony knowledge-

For our purposes, as unlicensed operators we have been given the use of 22 channels (soon to be 27) for use of voice communications. Each channel has a specific frequency and other parameters assigned to it. Operation outside of these frequencies and other ISM Bands by a non licensed individual is strictly prohibited and will NOT be tolerated at any event.

The 27 channels are divided into 3 categories, FRS, GMRS, and MURS.

FRS - Family Radio Service - UHF Band ~462MHz and ~467MHz
FRS consists of channels 1 through 14 with channels 1 through 7 being “shared” with GMRS. Each channel has a bandwidth of 25KHz and a maximum RMS output of 0.5 Watts

GMRS - General Mobile Radio Service - UHF Band ~462MHz
NOTICE: GMRS requires a licence to use in the US. DO NOT USE GMRS WHEN YOU ARE CLOSE TO THE BORDER. This goes double for GMRS channels 5, 6, and 7 (19, 20, and 21) as they are emergency channels.

GMRS has 8 channels that we list as 15 to 22 with all 8 of them being “shared” with FRS.
Each channel has a bandwidth of 25KHz and a maximum RMS output of 2 Watts.
Mobile stations, base stations (vehicle and building “permanent” installations) and repeaters are prohibited from use on the GMRS band.

MURS - Multi Use Radio Service - VHF Band ~151 MHz and ~154MHz
Not in service until [UNKNOWN]
MURS consists of 5 channels that are not shared with FRS or GMRS channels.
Channels 1, 2, and 3 have a Bandwidth of 11.25 KHz while 4 and 5 have a bandwidth of 20KHz.
The lower bandwidths means that the current programmable radios will not be permitted on these channels unless they can be programmed to use the permitted bandwidths.

Frequencies (MHz)

(forum formatting fail)

1 GMRS/FRS 462.5625
2 GMRS/FRS 462.5875
3 GMRS/FRS 462.6125
4 GMRS/FRS 462.6375
5 GMRS/FRS 462.6625
6 GMRS/FRS 462.6875
7 GMRS/FRS 462.7125
8 FRS 467.5625
9 FRS 467.5875
10 FRS 467.6125
11 FRS 467.6375
12 FRS 467.6625
13 FRS 467.6875
14 FRS 467.7125
15 GMRS 462.5500
16 GMRS 462.5750
17 GMRS 462.6000
18 GMRS 462.6250
19 GMRS 462.6500
20 GMRS 462.6750
21 GMRS 462.7000
22 GMRS 462.7250

(MURS is not yet in service in Canada)
1 MURS 151.820
2 MURS 151.880
3 MURS 151.940
4 MURS 154.570
5 MURS 154.600

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Comms 'Bleeding'

-What is it
-Why it happens
-How to prevent it

What is it
I am sure by now that just about everybody has heard it. You are listening to your radio and somebody else starts to talk who obviously does not belong on that channel. You can hear them but they cannot hear you.

Why it happens
FRS/GMRS radios operate using a 25KHz bandwidth. These bandwidth have built in guard spacing that 'should' eliminate the bleeding, but the cheaper china radios tend not to colour inside the lines so well.
For Ch 1-14 (FRS) this spacing is fine and does not cause any issue between any of them.
When you add Ch 15-22 (GMRS) this causes an issue.

Ch 15-22 operate very closely with Ch 1-7

Some people believe that some interference they get is simply from the power level of near by transmitters on different frequencies. I have tested this with up to 70W on adjacent channels with a few different receiving radios (2 types of blister pack, a Puxing 888, and a Motorola XTS2500), none of them receive any interference. So, these guys either have REALLY, REALLY shitty radios, or they were experiencing interference due to the bandwidth issues as described in this section below, which is far more likely.

Bandwidth - A channel uses more then one single frequency to work. To effectively transmit voice(or anything really) a chunk of frequencies are used with the carrier being the main one that is programmed into the radios.
This chunk of frequencies for FRS/GMRS is split in half and the carrier is the middle frequency.

For a 25KHz bandwidth, this means that a frequency of 462.5625 (Ch1) actually uses from 462.550 to 462.5750
462.550 and 462.5750 are the carriers for ch 15 and 16, which have their own 25KHz bandwidths as well.

This means that the channels have 12.5KHz overlaps with each other. Ch 1-7 and 15-22 all overlap with each other.

I have tried to illustrate this with a couple channels.

http://i.imgur.com/Nz0epm9.png

As seen, 1 overlaps with 15 and 16, and 2 overlaps with 16 and 17(not shown)

HOW TO PREVENT IT

There are many options to avoid this from happening, I will cover 2.

1. -Do not use Ch 15-22 or 1-7.
Instead restrict comms to 1-14 or 8-22

This ensures that there will be no bleeding and blister pack radios can still be used.
Limits the amount of ch that can be used, not good for very large games.

2. -Change your bandwidth settings to 12.5KHz instead of 25KHz on Ch 1-7 and 15-22 (This does not always work)
Also known as Narrow band. (Narrow - 12.5KHz, Wide - 25 KHz)
Not to be confused with the Channel STEPPING setting.
This will eliminate all overlapping, but slightly degrade audio quality.

This ones only works if everybody has non blister pack radios, which, as anybody who has read my game comms briefs knows I advocate.

I know this is possible on the Lintons and Puxings I own, but not sure about any other brand. It seems to be a popular option to add to these radios so I would assume most have it.

My tests on some china radios, higher and lower grade, has shown sporadic results though - this does not always work.


I am sure there are a few other things that can be done, but these are just a couple options that will work just fine.

I have not covered the difference between the CDN and US frequencies because we all use the US ones anyways. It also seems that no matter how hard I try, Blister pack radios will still be at massive mil sims like this, and you can ONLY get those with US frequencies.

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'Sub' Channels

Sub channels are bad and they should feel bad.

-What are they
-How do they work
-Why are they bad

What are they

Sub channeling is a method used to block all incoming traffic on a particular channel that does not contain a specific squelch tone.

How do they work

These sub channels operate using a squelch tone.

Squelch - Without squelch, you would constantly hear noise. Squelch turns off your receive circuit until it is triggered either by a specific signal, or a signal with X strength. At this point, it opens up your receive circuit until the tone/signal stops.

While the squelch is open, you can hear EVERYTHING on the frequency you are tuned into.

With FRS/GMRS there are two different technologies used to create 'sub channels' using squelch.
1. CTCSS
2. DCS

They are both quite different in their nitty gritty operation, but achieve the same result.

With CTCSS ch 1 (67 Hz) enabled, your radios squelch will only open up your receive circuit when it receives a 67 Hz tone.


Why are they bad

They are bad because it gives you the false illusion that you are on a private channel and can talk whenever you want without interfering with anybody else.

For this example I will be using CTCSS squelch tones.

---

Scenario:
-You are allotted FRS Ch 2.
-You want to have 3 nets
- Sect 1
- Sect 2
- Sect 3

FRS - 2 - Sub 1 = Sect 1
FRS - 2 - Sub 2 = Sect 2
FRS - 2 - Sub 3 = Sect 3

Radios will be programmed as such.

Sect 1 = 462.5875 MHz CTCSS 1 (67 Hz)
Sect 2 = 462.5875 MHz CTCSS 2 (71.9 Hz)
Sect 3 = 462.5875 MHz CTCSS 3 (74.4 Hz)



A member of sect 1 keys up to talk. All member of sect ones radios are activated and all sect 1 members can hear. Sect 2 and 3 do not hear this traffic.

Because members of Sect 2 and 3 do not hear sect 1 traffic, they do not know that there is traffic being passed. Therefor they do not know that the net is in use and not to key up.

A member of sect 2 keys up. All Sect 2 radios are activated.
A member of sect 3 keys up. All sect 3 radios are activated.
All members of sect 2 and 3 can now hear all traffic - This is a collision - bad.

A member of sect 1, 2 and 3 all end up keying up during the same transmission.
More collisions, more bad.

Because the transmitting stations can't hear the net, they do not know that they are talking at the same time as others. 2 people attempting to talk on the net at the same time is incoherent.

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Hardware

Blister Pack Radios (THEY ARE BAD AND THEY FEEL BAD)

Blister Pack Radios are the ones you find at canadian tire, wally world, the corner store, etc. Usually packaged, in blisterpacks.
They are bound by law, meaning low transmitting power and fixed, SHORT antennas. Some of them even use slightly off, or completely different frequencies for the channels. making them not work with other brands. They often have roger beeps enabled, sometimes permanently.

AVOID AT ALL COSTS


4W Programmable Radios

These are the the ones you want. There are numerous brands, models, and price points out there and can seem intimidating to somebody new to the world of radios.

They often have far more functionality and abilities that the blister pack radios do not offer.

Because these radios are programmable, and sold to an international audience, they do not come with the FRS/GMRS channels pre-programmed, therefore it is VERY important that you only use the radio within the 22(27) frequencies that we have been granted use of.

Some of the more popular radios include;

Puxing 777
Puxing 888
Puxing 888k
Baofeng UV-5R b,c, etc

The list goes on.

It is very important that when choosing a radio you get one in the correct frequency range, usually 400-470MHz. You should also make sure that it has the standard antenna and headphone/mic ports. (SMA Male and Kenwood 2-Pin)

http://i.imgur.com/N7v8w3h.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/Al4RWUC.jpg

Larger Radios(more power)

Larger radios such as man packs and vehicle mountable radios usually come with 20W+ power ratings. Some people see that higher number and think they need it, because more is better.
While it is very true that higher power is better with telephony, it is definitely not required for our application, and could land us in some shit. As mentioned above, the 4W radios that we use violate the law. They usually just slip by and nobody cares, but they are starting to get noticed because people are using them improperly. If we start parading around the EM spectrum with overpowered china grade transmitters, somebody will definitely take notice - especially when there are Industry Canada guys on these forums.

4W is MORE than enough for our applications. With the stock antenna I was able to keep loud and clear comms out to just past 4KM in medium/dense forest. Which is very close to the limit of Line of sight comms, which is roughly 4.41 KM at the height of my face.

So, these larger radios are simply not needed, and not suggested. The use of vehicle and base mounted radios is specifically outlined as being against the law, let alone their transmitting power.

Batteries

This one is pretty sweet and simple
BUY EXTRA BATTERIES!

Antennas

The antennas that come with the radios are usually sufficient, but if you want to edge out your reception in dense forest. or in a large building you will want to get a longer antenna.
Anything longer is better, and the higher you can get it on your body the better.

The ‘average’ wavelength of FRS/GMRS frequencies is ~25.44 inches.
Obviously an antenna that long would be unwieldy, so we need to reduce the size of it in fractions of the wavelength. I personally use one that is 14” long, or ½ wavelength. To get it away from my body and a bit higher up, I use an antenna relocation kit.

1/4 wave = ~6.5"
1/2 wave = ~14"
5/7 wave = ~18"
3/4 wave = ~19"
1 wave = ~25.44"

Because we are working with more than one frequency, you are not limited to the numbers above, anything within those values will work. However, using an antenna above 1 Wavelength is not preferable, nor should you weave it into your gear to such a point that it is no longer roughly straight. Having too much of a curve in the antenna will change its EM map and may be detrimental.

Headsets / microphones

I do not know enough about repro gear to really write about this.
What I do know is that after going through 2 sets of repro in one season I bought MSA Sordins, and a real U94 PTT and have never looked back.

It basically comes down to - buy what you can afford, and what is functional. But remember that if you buy shit, you get shit, and you will become shit to your team when your comms go down or start fucking up.

There are numerous options out there for headsets, mics, and PTTs.
One important thing to remember is that you should not use a speaker. Speakers are loud and they give away your position when you are trying to be sneaky.
If you do not like wearing a full headset, look into a shoulder mic and an ear bud like this:
http://www.tacticalcommandstore.com/.../IMG_03831.jpg

Find what works for you and stick to it.

Another important thing about PTTs is placement on your gear.
Spend a long time deciding where you want to put your PTT. It must be in a spot where it can not be accidentally activated. If you end up hot micing you will be hunted down by your teammates and castrated.

fin
Maybe?
This could get bigger if people have questions, and it depends on how lazy I am.

Feel free to ask questions, comment, and add to it... especially in areas I am lacking like repro ancillaries.

When using a longer antenna say? A 25in and folding it 2-3 times (like the mil/blade type antennas) down to 6-8in or so, decrease the clarity of the transmissions/receptions? Or is it over all length of the antenna whats important?

Very good read thanks for putting the time and effort to educate :) Hopefully people will take heed to this.

Very good, and very understandable.

I am going to re-read my radio manual in the AM and post a couple questions.

Now this is the kind of thing needed by those of us who are either new to airsoft or only use radios at work, which are FAR less complex. I've read the post 3 times now and am begining to get it. At least I think I'm getting it... Either way, I'm rethinking the use of radios in the field. Having never owned a radio like the Puxing 888, this is all new to me. I was thinking about maybe getting one, but now, I think I need to do some research and learn more. Right now I only have a pistol, but I know how it basically works and why. Radios shouldn't be different. if you have it, you should know the basics of how it works.

I'm guessing from this post, there are many people who go to games who need and use such radios. So now I'm asking, how important is it to those who have radios? I have hunted large game for years and haven't yet used a radio, maybe I should have been...

This is a superb write up. Thank you so much for this. I just re-programmed my 777 properly using what I learned from this.

Like this article, will keep it for reference. I do have a question. Apart from hand programming a radio are there any good software program that can be used to do the programming. Then plug in the radio to up load the fregs?

The software programs are unique to the handset. Most you can program by cable from a laptop or copy over from a second handset.

Folding those blade antennas electrically shortens the length and will decrease the reception properties.

Think of it like a net, the larger the net, the more of the signal you are receiving. However, if your net is larger your net, the more potential there is to pickup the background noise and whatnot, especially when you move past 1 wavelength.

There are programming cables that you can get, however the drivers and the software are sometimes difficult to install and make work. When you only need to use it presumably once, it is not really worth the money to me.

[QUOTE]There are programming cables that you can get, however the drivers and the software are sometimes difficult to install and make work. When you only need to use it presumably once, it is not really worth the money to me./QUOTE]

Yep got the cable but for the life of me can't find a good program to upload

Gotta use the manufacturer software
The wouxun UVD1P is not only an excellent radio all round, but also has very simple software that's free.

Thank you, I think im going to go with the Baofeng UV-5RD with the stock anenna and pic up an extra 14in~ just in case. Thank you again for straightening this hole bag of snakes out.

Thanks for this! Reading some of your earlier posts (which it looks like you've moved here) helped me get a firm understanding on frequencies and bleeding in the past.

Generally, you'll only be using the radio on the FRS/GRMS frequencies. If you know the first frequency, and the bandwidth (25 khz), you can step through pretty easily. :)
I also have them written on a piece of card paper, with "secret radio codes" scribbled at the top. :p

I have a few questions:
MURS: This is the first I've heard of MURS. Do you expect that it will become more common world wide? As in, will international radios start having these lower frequencies built in? Do you expect that game hosts will start using them?

Wavelength: This is sort of unrelated, but do you know of any simple resources online that explain why an antenna that is shorter than the wavelength of the signal, would be sufficient? I'm at work, and can't really wrap my head around that at the moment, but I'm curious as to how it works.
...I don't know how radio signals are transmitted, so I suppose that might help me understand better, haha.

"Real" headsets with Chinese radios: I bought a pair of MSA Sordins on a whim, assuming that they'd work fine with my Puxing 888 and Chinese PTT, without doing much research. Obviously they won't work, because of the impedance difference (maybe add a little about impedance to the original post?). I've started out doing a little research, and from what I saw, I would need to either replace the microphone with a low impedance mic, or I would have to buy a real PTT and radio.
If I get a real PTT, will I need to buy a different radio as well? Or would a PTT be all that I need to make my Sordins work with 888?
If I can't use the 888, do you have a recommendation for a decent radio? I'm having trouble finding good advice for something like that, since I don't need a ton of bells and whistles.

Send your sordins to Srs tactical to change the mic, cost you $100. Personally is recommend getting a real nexus ptt from them as well, cost you $150. Nexus ptt + MSA sordin works great with a puxing 888 once you swap the mix (and plug if need be).

It's fast too, shipped my headset out, had the work done and had it back in my hands in 3 business days. (And while it's there, if you don't already have gel ear cups, buy them, they're worth every penny of the $45.)

Thanks w1lp33, I'll look into it. I'm gonna have to save up some money, but that's probably what I'll end up doing.

MURS is already within the range of the dual band (VHF/UHF) radios such as the Puxing 888K, however as I stated, the current popular radios are mostly incapable of using a bandwidth low enough to make use of MURS.
MURS has been in use in other countries for a little while now, but I don't know if China will be re-vamping the radios to work with it. Hopefully they do.

I'm not really sure how to answer this one, I'm sure I was taught it or read it somewhere, but pure theory things like this that don't affect my day to day work are usually filed under the "FUCKING MAGIC" category in my brain.

I"ll read up on it some more and try to answer you question.

Yes, your sordins will work with your puxing.
Yes, they will work with your repro PTT.

The PTT MAY need to be re-wired, but that is a simple job, if you are thinking about getting a real PTT and have the cash to spare, do it, its so worth it.
Your sordins will need to have the mic replaced, this is easily and quickly done by SRS Tactical in Alberta. Shoot an email to Steve and he can set you up in no time, A++++ Service.

I would suggest shipping him your radio and PTT as well so he can test it on YOUR system.

Thank you for this most excellent write-up, for now I am stuck with my Motorola T5700s. And I will vouch for what you pay is what you get, I was fooling around with my eBay $16 throat mic that I received today and was sounding like the adults in a Charlie Brown cartoon. :(

Great, thanks Cobra. :)
The wavelength thing isn't a big deal. I'll sit down and research it myself when I have time. It's just got me curious.

It's just usually easier for someone to direct you to some information, if you know nothing about the field you're trying to research. Otherwise, you won't know what to search for, or know if you're reading the correct thing.q

Got myself some SABERs here. Saber R, Saber I and a SABER III.

Wondering if any of you radio guys knew a good place to get accessories like batteries, antennas and the like?

I might have a way to program these shortly, so I'd love to start using them more.

If you cant get the parts OEM, go to Ebay.

There are a few places in ON that will have whatever antenna you want.

http://www.durhamradio.com/
http://www.radioworld.ca/

Great post, thanks
Should be stickied!

So I have a puxing 888D...

I also have a pair of Ztactical repro comtacs. What type of a PTT will I need to purchase to make it work? I have no idea what the connecter on my comtacs is, but its just a stubby 2cm long pin with three black rings...and I think the 888D is a Kenwood two pin? Or is it a Motorola 2 pin?

Or should I just chuck those headsets and buy another pair?

If anyone could recommend a headset AND push to talk that would work with the 888D without also having to buy extra plugs and adapters and such that would be great, Id like to spend less then 400 bucks of course for this....so if anyone knows good repros that would be great.

The only problem im going to have is I hear that ztacical stuff is garbage...so ill havbe no way of knowing if the ptt or headset or both is DoA....

I saw mention of rewiring a PTT....does anyone have a link to that or know why you would re-wire it?

The connector you have is called a TP-120, it is one of the more common 'nato' plugs.

For compatibility's sake just get the Z TAC TP-120 to Kenwood 2pin PTT. Its china, no 2 companies are going to have the PTTs and headsets wired the same because they don't follow standards.

Re-wireing the PTT was only for using a REAL headset.

Is there a PTT that is able to run two radios at the same time? One using a Kenwood connector, and the other a single pin Motorola?

There are such PTTs, Emerson and Ztac make them (repro).
I am unsure on how well they function compared to RS dual monitoring systems.
Unless the people on the radios have VERY distinctive voices, or VERY good voice protocol good luck ever telling the 2 nets apart.

You could grab dual comm sordins, and run two seperate PTts, and then each radio will play in each ear, so you can tell then apart :-)

Yes, of course that is the preferred meathod, but $$$$$$ :P

Most people on here are not willing to drop that kinda cash on guns let alone comms lol.

The ZTac dual comm PTT works very well (here is a review of the Z118 Z4Ops. I've used one with two Px-888s with no troubles. I did find that the ZTac unit works best without a battery inserted. All the battery gives you is volume control via the PTT, but it also adds a lot of noise to the signal. Hence I've always used the thing in unpowered mode.

A friend sent his ZTac dual comm PTT to SRS Tactical and had it re-wired to work with real single comm Sordins. He has reported that this setup works very well with his dual Px-888s.

Amazing, valuable information! Thank you very much!
I am looking to buy Puxing PX-888K from the link you have provided, and I see three identical radios:
PX-888K-G-SP+4-001K
PX-888K-B+4-001K
PX-888K-G+4-001K

The difference between the first one and second and third (besides color) is only the weight. The price is the same. I am trying to find what SP is and can't. Can anybody knowledgeable please explain? I don't want to buy a wrong one.

The last 2 have a slightly different UHF range of 400-480MHz vs the regular 400-470MHz.

Not a big deal, makes no difference.

What's the advantage of having a quality PTT?
Is it mostly just reliability? I always see people smacking their PTTs; unplugging them and plugging them back in.

Or does it provide noticeable clarity, etc, too?

No smacking required, rugged, durable, better signal transfer so in turn better or PROPER quality

Mostly, the advantage lies in having the 'talk' button in an area on your body which is both quickly and easily accessible while keeping it out of the way of any other gear. It also creates a wiring hub which allows you to run cabling in such a way that keeps it out of the way as well (i.e: PTT goes on off-hand shoulder/ chest region, off-hand has little travel distance between the PTT and your weapon system, main hand stays in a ready-to-fire position on the weapon system without interruption, wiring is tight to your PC/ LBV and is less likely to snag on twigs, mags, your elbows etc).

With standardized PTTs of decent quality you can attach your radio, the PTT, and their shared wiring to your plate carrier or LBV more-or-less permanently, leaving the headset and radio as their own separate entities. This is good for your range of movement, as well as allowing you to hot-swap headsets and radios or affect adjustments/ repairs on the fly without forcing you to dismantle the entire system.

The advantages of clarity and reliability are a direct result of the quality of the PTT itself, the quality of the wiring, and the type of connector at the PTT-> radio endpoint (smacking a PTT may be a sign of poorly soldered/ worn out connections, Motorola Single Pin carries everything on one tiny prong and is therefore terrible by nature etc).

Pretty much just reliability.
There might be a hardly noticeable increase in audio quality because of thicker wires.

Thanks guys.

thanks! radio problem solved

This can also un-match the antenna to the designed frequency and this will introduce a much higher SWR which can permanently damage the front end of the radio making it totally useless sometimes. But hey it looks cool cause the mil guys do it. Heber there radios are designed to tolerate much higher swr and when the blow the front end they just swap it out with antihero from stores ad have the original fixed. YMMV

Great info but also to add to that using illegal radios in Canada. They may work fine and dandy but IC not allows you to use a radio which it WA designed foe ie you can't use a commercial radio on CRS etc. But a lot of people do it still.

Again great info love it.

Changing the length of the antenna will not change its designed impedance. As long as it presents 50 Ohms load on the opposite end of the transmission line as the generator its good.

Seeing as the majority of people on here will be running their antennas directly to the radios, SWR is nearly a nil factor as there is no transmission line for it to reside on.

Yep, that was the whole point of my sentence, there is a guy who works for IC that plays with us and happily uses these radios alongside us at games.

Note that most of the repro (AN/PRC variety) radios are basically the same as other Chinese programmable UHFs and those blade antennas are just a normal 4W/400Mhz antenna hidden inside a blade-style shell. Unless you're trying to mount a real PRC blade on a Chinese UHF it shouldn't be a problem.

Actually it does and it can be a dramatic change hence the warning, if you don't believe me place an antenna analyzer on the antenna when t is as designed then bend touch it etch then watch it go from say 1.5 to over 10-20 ouch.

SWR apply to both antenna line and antennas, that for sure.

Antenna that are telescopic tend to suffer from bad SWR, just stick to a simple antenna like a Nagoya.

By the way, MURS is still not legal in Canada:

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst...g/sf10822.html

wow that is very comprehensive, good job.

Private channels
 

Does any of you guys use "private" channels for your team? If so, how do you achieve it?

I was thinking of using MURS frequencies then saw barberouge's post, so I figured it was a bad idea.

Then I thought of using "in between" frequencies in the GMRS range. But I'm afraid of "bleeding" on other frequencies.

Any other thoughts?

EDIT: the purpose would be to have a team dedicated channel when we attend 200+ players events.

You would do better to ask the organizer to assign a channel.

Otherwise there's no real way to guarantee another team won't hop on the same one.

And just like "call your hits" the game will have rules about jamming the other freqs or spying on the chatter.

This is indeed the current way of doing things. However, we're starting to see 400+ players games with up to 26 squads on each sides. Once you start dividing the GMRS channels in between squads you can end up with 30-40 people on the same channel. That's why I'm looking for a solution for our team in those specific situations, based on the fact that in our team we're all using HAM radios. At some point the game organizor can't do much more than what's available on the GMRS frequencies.

Wow the signups have doubled in a few short minutes.

How about using a phone?

I like your sense of humor.

All right, I admit 200+ players events happens a few times a year and 400+ events only once a year (currently). While in one case the radio logistics is still manageable, in the worst case its starting to get messy. In any case, lets assume that I just want to get fancy, is there technicaly a way of doing it or not?

I'd just say come up with a SOP inside the team to hop freqs up or down if needed and a solid voice protocol so even if there's chatter or interference you still understand each other.

If you already have that down then maybe you can hop so some other disused bandwidth but I hear that can get you in hot water.

Private channels will be REALLY expensive, and likely shared between you and other businesses, unless you want to pay EVEN MORE. They are also likely restricted by regions so you would probably need some for every field, again solved by LOADS of money. This is why that option was removed from the OP.

To inquire more, contact your local Industry Canada Office, they will have all the answers.

To save money, only allow squad leaders on the comms. At massive squad based games like this, why do you need everybody on comms, when you are RIGHT BESIDE THEM.

Either that, or train everybody to use radios properly, with proper voice procedure and all. Train them to only speak when they REALLY need to and not just jam up comms with chatter.

For the puxing 888k.... I have a battery question.

Is the battery life different from the 1200MAH and the 1600MAH? 'Im trying to figure out how many extra batteries I need to buy to last a decent millsim. The 1200MAH is the standard battery it comes with.

Also what is the difference between high and low power states? Since it will last 12 hours on low and 8 hours on high. Distance and/or quality effects?

I think having a standard 1200MAH and a spare 1600MAH would be good enough for a typical milsim yes?

Battery life is usually calculated by the manufactures using the 80/10/10 or 90/5/5 rule.

This means that 80% of the time a radio is sitting idle, 10% of the time it is receiving, and 10% of the time it is transmitting - or 90%-5%-5%.

Obviously in a milsim, you will be transmitting and receiving far more often, thus reducing the battery life a fair amount.

Batteries are cheap, I have 3 1525mAh batteries for my radio and would suggest that anybody have 2 spare batteries for long milsims, especially if they are in a position where they need comms, such as command, platoon or squad leaders.

Most radios, low power means you will be transmitting at 1W, and high is 4W. This does not mean your battery will last 4 times longer on low, but it will extend the battery life a lot.

Of course, lower power means less distance, but any outdoor field you should be ok on low, when buildings or other large obstructions get involved, high is the way to go.

There's also a noticeable difference between NiMH/NiCd and lithium batteries
Our old GP68's had 1200mah batts upgradeable to 1800mah NiMH. The 1800s tended to last almost exactly 24 hrs with a normal amount of traffic.
Charging and maintaining battery health was a huge pain though. After a year none of our NiCds held more than 300mah.

With the new wouxuns, they use more energy, have 1700mah lithium batts, but last 24hrs of heavy traffic, and under decent traffic they'll likely last into the 30hr range.
No memory effect and naturally longer battery life due to the discharge curve

Okay im new to radios as most of you can put together, ive programmed in the 22 frequencies.... now which frequencies should I be aware of to not use? I read the guide about the emergency service channels but I am not near the border. What are the most typical channel for a team to use to communicate with each other, with decent quality and minimal bleed?

P.S yes I am a noob with this...as the guide says I think channels 1-14 would be sufficient?

I purchased a throat mic from eBay for my Baofeng BF-777S. The "Kenwood" styled plugs on the mic are more like 12, maybe 12.5mm apart. Are there any adaptors that would fix this?


Location: YYZ VOR 062 radial, 17.5 DME FL5280

are you sure it's not a motorola dual pin? they're close enough in dimension to look exactly the same but be incompatible

Good question, and one I don't know the answer to.
The headset is either a genuine or clone TYT TH-2R PMR446. I was under the impression Motorola had the same pins, but in opposing order.


Location: YYZ VOR 062 radial, 17.5 DME FL5280

It seems you may have ended up with some wonky connector either specifically for the TYT radio, or just out of spec.

I would just find a new mic and toss that one unless you are up for cutting off the plugs and soldering in a known good kenwood plug.

I would suggest 409 shop, I have never head a bad thing form them, and its a shop specializing in comms related gear so they know what their innovatory actually is.

Radios and You
 

I'll take a look at 409 immediately. I carefully examined the plugs on the throat mic, and they must've been in the mold at a very slight angle. Gently squeezing the tips together by hand allowed me to plug the headset into any Kenwood jack just fine. The material surrounding the plugs is a flexible plastic, so it seems the tiny bit of flexing hasn't damaged the connection at all.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...28f2d0f0a8.jpg
I guess my remaining question now is, what freqs should I program my BF777S with? Sixteen channels available, and I've no idea what will be used in an airsoft game.
Still looking for something affordable that supports airband too, but that's a bit of a reach, lol.


Location: YYZ VOR 062 radial, 17.5 DME FL5280

Wait until game is announced and find out what freqs you will need. I would say you are pretty safe with 1 through 16 for skrims and small games though.

FRS freqs only unless you feel the need to incur Industry Canada's wrath.

-Grant

Grantmac, have you seen my signatures? I want a radio that can pull double duty.


Location: YYZ VOR 062 radial, 17.5 DME FL5280

None of the Baofeng can RX or TX on any aviation freqs. Their FM capability is RX only and stops before 118MHz.

You will need to get an aviation handheld if that is something you desire. Although if I want a listen I just plug in the trickle charger then sit in the plane with the master on, better ambiance :P

-Grant

I wasn't thinking of Baofeng for airband too. Was just creating conversation. Wishing for one low cost radio I could use for both. If I just wanna listen, my old Uniden Sportcat 200 handles aviation just fine.


Location: YYZ VOR 062 radial, 17.5 DME FL5280

Has anyone found any decent antennas that work with the Baofeng UV-5R radios? I was running a longer dual band Nagoya whip and I honestly couldn't tell a difference over the stock stubby unit.

Radios and You
 

I was thinking of getting one of these from eBay in the tan/gold colour. I like the length and flexibility. And for the prix, worth giving it a try.


Location: YYZ VOR 062 radial, 17.5 DME FL5280

I am having a heck of a time finding the BF-777S' default freqs. The manual says naught, and interwebs searches produce more advertisement results than anything.
Manual says 11 is for emerg, and 16 is for searching the other 15. No clue what any of the 16 freqs actually are, and my programming CD doesn't support my model Baofeng.


Location: YYZ VOR 062 radial, 17.5 DME FL5280

What do you mean by default frequencies?
Did it come pre-programmed from the factory?

Seems to have. I have two BF-777S, bought at the same time. You'll recall that my CD doesn't support the 777.
When I turn on "A" and "B", and tune them to the same channels, they talk to each other just fine. Leads me to understand they both at least come from the factory with the same settings.
Ergo my wondering what those default freqs are.


Location: YYZ VOR 062 radial, 17.5 DME FL5280

Is there no way to see what frequency you are on from the screen? or do you have one without.

This MIGHT be a correct list, pretty big emphasis on might :P

http://www.kh-gps.de/888_7.gif

Your best bet would be to try and find some software that will work with your radio online somewhere. The guys at Radio reference may be able to help you with that.

Or find a friend with a spectrum analyzer and the knowledge to use it to find out what the frequencies are.
If you can't do that, a last ditch effort would be to try out a cheap SDR. (you should anyways, they are fun) ~$20 and an hour of reading/watching tutorials will have you set up and running and you can use it as a spectrum analyzer, a scanner, or anything really. - LINK

Radios and You
 

The BF-777S comes without a screen. I got it for the power, the compact size, channel-changing knob with audio, and the wee prix.
I will take all your advice, thanks much.


Location: YYZ VOR 062 radial, 17.5 DME FL5280

I've heard these guys make good antennas.

http://www.smileyantenna.com/

http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/6947

Various base connectors available and you can select what frequency you want as the centre.

Question: using a BaoFeng at 2W shouldn't technically overpower average blister pack radios (being on the same frequency of course)?

Typically no, but I'm not sure 'overpower' means what you think it means. please elaborate.

Keep in mind,

I saw the term being used in one of the tutorials I watched, as well as in a small PDF explaining GMRS and FRS. I would guess it means that if there's a secondary transmission on a certain frequency with the same PL Tone, that the radio with more power (i.e. 5W) would interrupt transmission of the previous one.

...or maybe I just don't completely understand how this works.

The context to the question is that I am wondering if I have to use 2W or 5W setting in order to communicate with blister packs, or the better power setting in general (since apparently, 5W transmitters are illegal for public in Canada).

Power setting would just change the distance you can successfully transmit at. Good 2W or 4/5W radios will be able to transmit at much higher distances than blister pack radios can. Doesn't change the "receive" distance of course, because that depends on the sender's transmitting power.

This would happen even if the tones were different. PL tone is not a secret Chanel or security it only tells your radio when to turn the speaker on.

What your describing if I understand it is.

Team A radio on channel A, PL A
Team B radio on channel A, PL F

If either team A or B are transmitting and receiving clearly then team B transmits one of two two things happen. Either one of the teams radios over power the other transmission or what typically happens is they mess both transmissions up by QRF, or talk over.

PL tones are only a way to break squelch and not sub channel security of any means.

Just looking at reviving this thread with a question to everyone here who uses comms equipment in milsim events.

So what would be the best radio that is the most compatible with the majority of the players out there? I was leaning to a TRI Harris PRC-152 as I have a decent knowledge of them and a lot of experience usin em, BUT they are bloody pricey!

I'm looking for a comms suite that can include a Comtac 111 AHP headset and a good PTT switch (something like the TRI RACAL PTT)?

A puxing 777 or 888 is all you really need for airsoft. They're already put out more watts than you're allowed to without a license.

Security/LE type radios such as the Motorola XTS 1500 are a nice step up from what most airsofters are using. Puxing and Wouxun radios are the norm for most milsim events. As long as you are able to use UHF frequencies that standard civilian FRS and GMRS radios use you will be good to go. TRI Harris radio are nice, but there are other options out there that can set you up just as well for functionality.

With real headsets and China made radios the issue commonly experienced is matching impedence and having the correct connections for the downleads. If you're looking for a quality setup, SRS Tactical in Calgary does top notch work in terms of setting up your headset to work with the radio of your choice.

Aside from reliability the biggest thing to have besides the working setup is sufficient batteries to last longer games, particularly in cold weather. In addition to rechargeable batteries, having a AA battery adapter for your radio is worthwhile. If your radio is the same brand/model as the guys you usually play with, even better.

I've probably spent as much or more on comms for airsoft as I have on guns, if milsim games are up your alley, it's an important part of the game.

Also, I sent you a PM yesterday, have a look at it when you can.

Like others said, a puxing 888k/888/777, wouxun equivalents are the norm. They are excellent radios that do the job well.

I personally run an XTS2500 paired with a set of real MSA Sordins and a real nexus U94 PTT that were modified by SRS tactical to work with the XTS2500 + a TCI MAST kit.

Expensive high grade radios are definitely NOT needed. Start out with a puxing/wouxun and a good headset/ptt and see where you go from there.

Beyond a good headset and PTT, the best upgrade you can do is a longer antenna, or relocating the antenna to get it up above your shoulders. This will do wonders for you.

I'll have a look at these puxing and wouxun fellas. IYO what would be the best for clarity and features? The price point isn't too big of a deal, i'd rather get the right product the first time than having to go out and get something else later on!

Ok. So now I can say that I am a bit overwhelmed. I thought military comms was tricky. This is just a bit boggling to me. I was a meat head, not a Jimmy. When I joined comms were kind of simple then they lost me.

-Always state your name first
-Have an idea of where you are BEFORE transmitting
-Keep a who, what, where idea of what you're talking about (I don't need to know WHY half of bravo is eating lunch at their FOB, I just need to know half of them are eating lunch at their FOB.
-Keep transmissions under 10 seconds
-Imagine the other party listening to you is extremely pissed off and not at all in the mood for any mindless rhetoric

That's pretty well the airsoft basics.

This part of military comms I get. I'm actually quite good at it! It's all the technical craps that I don't! All I want is for my radio to work. I want to be able to reach c/s 0 when I need to reach c/s 0.

I hope these radios are better than army ones!

I have a radio it has 31 freakin channels! What frequencies should I set to start with?

I'm late to the party on this one but I HIGHLY recommend the Puxing 888K. The ability to change channels just rotating a top dial with voice ID for what channel you're on is legendary. Easy to add a channel and one battery lasted me 18 hours still showing 75% of it's capacity. Super happy with it, I only have scratched the surface of what it can do.

We were sick of that bullshit too.
frequency base UHF radios, constantly looking up channel frequencies and have to change them 4 fucking times before the game starts.
so we upgraded to wouxun uvd1p radios (baofengs are programmable too), and cloned every radio with the same program across all the teams we usually work with.
Everyone has the same channels; FRS 1-12, a few GMRS channels, and 4 special out of range frequencies for privacy.
very few radio issues now that everyone has the same program, makes things much easier.

http://i.imgur.com/0GmtA6E.gif

What radio is it?

Also, the issued radios are just fine! Peoples expectations of them are just crazy though, especially when they abuse the fuck out of the antennas and run low batteries forever.

Stop breaking them though, that is an issue...

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/61579296.jpg

The radio in question is the Puxing PX-777. I had it out today and had one of the guys at "my home field" program one frequency into it. It worked great. What I'd like now is a list of all the common frequencies, any channels that they go by and a good tutorial on all its functions. I'll check YouTube and Google.

Post 1 of this thread has a list of the frequencies that are used.

There will be plenty of tutorials on programming the radio on YT, the owners manual is a bit engrishly but it is understandable as well.

programming radio
 

just found this programme it does all model of radio
small and very comprehensive to work


CHIRP


http://chirp.danplanet.com/projects/chirp/wiki/Home

Yeah the 777 is a bit of a pain because you have to connect to a pic or another radio (i think they can do that) to program it. That's why I like my 888 and my beofeng uvr-5 you can program em right on the keypad.
If you have the cable then a lot of the soft wear will have the channel list alrdy in them (or you can find pre built list files for them) or you can tweak the settings a bit or enter them all yourself.

I grabbed a Baofeng GT-3. Should all of the frequencies loaded be adequate? Great read in this thread. Just wondering if there is a preset patch I can load into the radio or if it's alright where it is now.

Depends on what you mean by "adequate". I'm going to assume you mean basic FRS/GMRS channels.

Here is a very useful chart (it's also referenced on the 1st page of this thread). You can check the frequencies set on your GT-3 and compare to these ones. Personally, I printed a similar chart out with also frequencies of blister pack radios, laminated it, and keep it with my kit.

Awesome. thanx

Does anyone know if the SRS Kenwood PTT is able to work with the repro headsets in a Baofeng radio?

Right now Im unable to get them to work together, and I dont really have the cash to buy a real set of sordins.

i have a boafeng radio and a repro ptt. but they wont work together. I have found that if i dont plug the ptt all the way in the radio, it works.
what can do that?

ok, thanks for the help, I found my answer alone.

but I have an other question.
I have enter the frequencies listed in this post in 2 radios. those radios can communicate togeter but I wasnt able to talk to others? how come?