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Old May 7th, 2007, 17:51   #121
Duff
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skruface View Post
Ran into an issue with mine yesterday, as it was the first time I tried to field it.

I was unable to insert the magazine without a great deal of force (yes, the bolt was out of the gun) and once I had it seated (by a slap on the bottom of the mag), it would not release. The mag release lever had lost all tension and wouldn't move - it was rock solid - and it took me 5 minutes to get the mag out by pushing it down hard from the inside/top of the now-boltless receiver with my fingers while wiggling the mag back and forth.

Upon cursory inspection, the side of the mag is now pretty scratched up (it was mint before), and as near as I can tell the mag was being pinched after inserting it about 1.5" - it was almost like the walls of the magazine well were too tight? There may be some damage to the mag catch from having to force it open. I'm going to use some emery cloth or a buffing wheel on my dremel to smooth the inside of the magwell, but I'm unimpressed to say the least.

In the meantime, anyone else experience this? Since this gun is pretty rare in my parts, it's not like I can just find another mag to cheek and see if the problem is the magazine or the receiver....

never had anything like that happen. at times it was a little stiff loading but never had that issue. If you want to the mags on mine... fire off a PM my way.
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Old June 2nd, 2007, 17:41   #122
ILLusion
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Okay, so I've gotten around to messing around with a bunch of other upgrade parts for the A.I.C.S.:


King Arms Striker Spring & Steel Impact Plate for Tanaka M700 / M40 / M24
So I originally bought this kit just to get this improved steel striking plate because stiffer striker springs will cause greater wear on the stock soft metal striking plates. I wanted to put this plate on to the magazine which I installed the "KM Custom Magazine Part for Tanaka M700". KM makes their own impact plate, but it's tough to find in stock anywhere.

However, I'll first start by mentioning the spring:
I was originally using the G&G striker spring, but one thing I noticed about it was that... yes, it's very stiff and provides a very positive, solid and consistent hit. My worry about it was how much added wear it was adding to the bolt parts, especially when closing the bolt ramp. Out of curiosity, I tried the King Arms striker spring anyways and was pleasantly surprised. It still provided a fairly positive hit... much more so than stock, while its reduced weight made closing the bolt easier. That pretty much solved my issue with added wear to the bolt ramps and considered it a good compromise. I kept the King Arms spring in.

On to the striking plate:
The first thing I noticed when I installed this striking plate: Steel. NOICE. That solves a lot of my worries about excess wear.
So the install is pretty painless, pop the retention pin out of the existing plate and put the new one in. Pretty simple.
Time for the first gas fill.

*PSSSSHSHHHHHHH* cold propane spraying all over my hand from the exhaust port. "WTF?!" I thought, and did an upright fill one more time to test potential causes for this. Seems like this new striker plate was keeping the valve open, even in a relaxed state. Further inspection revealed that extra material on the inner lower side of the striker plate (below the retention pin which also acts as a fulcrum) was forcing the top of the plate to prematurely depress the plunger arm.
Once I removed the plate, I placed it side by side with the stock plate to profile the shape. Indeed, from the pinhole to the bottom of the plate, there is about an extra mm of material. 2 minutes of filing later, I had the plate down to size and installed in the magazine, filling with no problems. Zero play on the plate also means I took off just enough material. I'm not sure if this was purposely done by King Arms. Maybe it works on the M700 short mags? Or maybe we can just chalk it up to poor QC? Who knows... it works now...

... or does it?

Time to insert the filled magazine in to my AICS for some test shots.

Uh oh. Problem #2. The magazine was extremely tough to insert now. To the point where I had to give it a really hard slap to get the magazine fully inserted with catch engaged. But I also noticed that when I gave it the finally slap in, each time, I would hear a pop of gas escaping the valve. Based on that observation, I surmised the striking point of the plate must be sticking out enough to rub against the magwell wall, and protruding enough for the hammer to hit it upon mag insertion.
Removal of the magazine with the striking plate in this state is extremely difficult. This may go back to Skruface's problem. One handed mag removal was pretty much damn near impossible, and two hands were required to yank the magazine out. Not acceptable.
Once the magazine was removed, inspection of the striking area showed that the surface definitely protruded past the plate's channels in the magazine by a good 1.5 to 2mm. A couple of more minutes with a file solved that problem. The mag was now freely going in and out of the magwell.


Now to give her a test run.

I had my PCS set up so that with a stock magazine, after firing off about 10 successive shots, I would *eventually* end up at around 445 to 450fps with 0.20g BBs shooting propane. Yes, the stock magazine is THAT bad. My test this time with stock magazine showed:
238fps
222fps
351fps
408fps
425fps
429fps
445fps
439fps
436fps
443fps
438fps
439fps
442fps
434fps

Avg: 399fps Spread: disgusting

Pretty horrible. One shot one kill? Not really. Completely unacceptable


Okay, now for my modified magazine that now had the following parts installed:
- KM Custom Magazine Part
- G&G Gas Route Connecter Spring
- King Arms Steel Striker Plate

Chrony results:
288fps
390fps
425fps
446fps
453fps
455fps
453fps
458fps
460fps
457fps
453fps
451fps
457fps
456fps

Avg: 436fps Spread: better

Much nicer. Much more consistent, and although first shots was still sort of low, it was MUCH better than the stock magazine setup.

Another thing I noticed, was that on a very full magazine of propane, the modified magazine could not be struck open. I'm inspecting to see if it's because this weaker striker spring is too weak to crack open this valve, or if it's because I need to file more of the plate down.

In any case, the numbers shown above are more of a reflection of the other components in this magazine (gas route connector spring and KM custom magazine parts), and may not necessarily have anything to do with the King Arms parts I've installed.

Last edited by ILLusion; June 2nd, 2007 at 18:19..
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Old June 2nd, 2007, 18:14   #123
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G&G Knock Arm & Plunger Set
For those unfamiliar to the M700 internals, the magazine consists of multiple components. Personally, I find the system unnecessarily complex, but it seems to work okay...

An explanation of the system:

1. Trigger is pulled
2. Valve knocker (hammer) is released
3. Valve knocker strikes the striking plate on the back of the magazine
4. Striking plate in turn strikes the plunger inside the magazine
5. The plunger than hits the knock arm. (The knock arm is supported by an internal structure in the magazine that it can rotate against)
6. The knock arm's 90 degree extension sits inside a groove on the release valve. When the knock arm's upright arm is knocked by the plunger from behind, the other arm forces the valve down, and thus, releasing gas into the gas route connection
7. The gas route connection has an integrated spring tensioned release outlet. This is what the G&G gas route connector spring upgrades. It puts tension against the bolt's intake port for the gas.


So... given that fairly complex explanation of the inner workings of the magazine, you immediately notice a downfall of the design: TOO MANY MOVING PARTS!

Particularly, the striking plate itself is a redundant part. It touches the plunger... and all it does is acts as an interface between the valve knocker and the plunger. But at the same time, due to the design of the knocker, and of the plunger, the valve knocker would quickly get damaged, and so would the plunger over time.

In steps the G&G Knock Arm & Plunger Set.

The KM Custom magazine parts is similar... but not the same. The KM set consists of:
- Plunger
- Knock Arm
- Gas valve opening
- Gas route connector port

It has two more parts. Are they necessary? Does one set perform better than the other? That was what I was about to find out.

The first thing I noticed about the G&G set, was that the design of the plunger eliminated the need for the striker plate! Very nice. The end of the plunger is now replaced with a protrusion that ends in a larger striking surface. One less moving part is always good in my books! The KM set just goes as far as 1:1 replacement of the stock arm. An impact plate is still required to interface the plunger with the valve knocker. The G&G setup is simple, yet effective.

So installation proceeded. Taking the magazine apart isn't too difficult, if you're familiar with how gas chambers work and such. These Tanaka magazines have a TON of parts. No wonder they're so insanely expensive. And heavy.

Once completely disassembled, two c-clips are removed to extract the plunger arm and the knock arm. The G&G versions went right in without much hassle. Just the reverse of removal, except the plunger arm needs the striking end to be screwed in from the other side. G&G was kind enough to drill a small detent so that a small allen key or something can be inserted on one end to hold it still, while you screwed the other end in.

While I had this all apart, I replaced the gas route connector spring with the G&G version. I like the spring. It seems to tighten up initial velocities a bit and improves the air seal.

Magazine all assembled. Time to fill gas.

*PSSSSSSHSHHHHHH*

"WTF?!??"

Cold propane all over my hand again, from the release valve. Something's holding the valve open again. Either the valve knocker's release arm is a bit too big and pushing the valve down... or the plunger is a bit too long and pushing the valve knocker down.

So I removed the G&G knock arm and replaced it with the stock Tanaka one. Once reassembled, first gas fill was a success. So it seems like the dimensions of the knock arm are incorrect.

I didn't test the materials of the G&G part versus the Tanaka part, so I can't really say which one is better. But the Tanaka part seemed sturdy enough, so I decided to stick with it. I may revisit it in several months to see if any wear has made an appearance. I pretty much just stuck with the Tanaka part out of laziness in not wanting to modify the G&G part to fit. Some elbow grease and a file should be able to take down enough material to make it work.


Time to fill up the magazine and test it out.

Results:

485fps
461fps
457fps
457fps
454fps
455fps
451fps
453fps
453fps
450fps
446fps
446fps
453fps
451fps

Avg: 455fps

WOW!!!! :shock: I LIKE THIS SETUP! Now THIS is the kind of performance I've been looking for, that I expect, and that I'm used to! Very consistent, and for gas setups, you WANT it to start high and ramp down. Not the other way around! It gives you a better chance of that "one shot, one kill", because hop up will not be affected negatively.

But KEEP THESE RESULTS IN MIND for safety reasons!! Remember your engagement distances, and if it's been a while since you've last fired a shot from your mag, the first following shot will be higher than the magazine average!! Keep it safe.

Last edited by ILLusion; June 2nd, 2007 at 18:17..
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Old June 2nd, 2007, 18:40   #124
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King Arms M700 Nozzle

Okay, so there's the big hub-bub now about Tanaka's removal of the PCS bolt from all new M700 rifles to comply with new Japanese laws. It's a real shame. And on top of that, they've placed a restricted nozzle on all their new bolts, limiting the gas output, which keeps the velocities... well... pretty crappy.

King Arms saw the need for an unrestricted nozzle. And while they were at it, increase the bore a bit more so that even users with a PCS bolt could get a further performance boost (assuming you already had your valve cranked wide open and wanted even MORE velocity...)

So I brought in one of these valves just to see what difference it had.

Note: I'm lucky enough to have a PCS bolt in my AICS.

First thing I did was mic it up. Pulled out my trusty Starrett digital calipers and gauged the inner bore of the King Arms part. (No, I don't have a bore gauge, but this should do for a rough idea on differences).

King Arms bore diameter: 4.725mm
Tanaka bore diameter: 4.560mm

I'm actually unable to figure out how to remove the nozzle from the bolt... and I'm afraid to take pliers to it. If I ruin my PCS bolt, I'll cry. So for now, I'll leave this review at that. If anybody has any suggestions on how to remove the nozzle, I'm all ears.

But from what I know of gas systems, bigger bore = higher velocity, at the expense of greater gas consumption. This part *should* do what it claims.
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Old June 2nd, 2007, 18:50   #125
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This review is awesome for two reasons;

I) Insanely informative
II) Most uses of the phrase "WTF?" in a review...ever...

This is great for those of us considering the m700, keep it up!
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Old June 2nd, 2007, 20:15   #126
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wow I agree, these reviews are really helpful and in-depth
nice job Illusion!
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Old June 10th, 2007, 16:31   #127
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Was mucking around with my AICS, but it eventually got to the point where the valve knocker could no longer release any gas on any of the magazines, not just the first couple of shots on my KM Custom Parts mag.

I thought the striker spring may have prematurely worn down, so I disassembled the bolt to throw the stock spring back in there.

However, once I had the bolt apart, I noticed the spring guide had practically almost unscrewed itself all the way out. I tightened it back up, reassembled the bolt and tried firing again - flawless performance, even on the KM Custom Parts magazine.

I did a re-chrony and saw numbers closer to what I was expecting, and consistant with what I had received in my initial tests between the stock magazine and the KM custom parts upgraded magazine:

Stock:
493 fps
467 fps
471 fps
465 fps
469 fps
463 fps
464 fps
462 fps
461 fps
462 fps


KM Custom Parts, G&G Gas Connector Spring & King Arms Strike Plate
461 fps
463 fps
463 fps
459 fps
459 fps
459 fps
461 fps
461 fps
461 fps
463 fps


G&G Plunger, G&G Gas Connector Spring Test #1
387 fps
423 fps
442 fps
441 fps
442 fps
443 fps
437 fps
443 fps
441 fps
443 fps

G&G Plunger, G&G Gas Connector Spring Test #2
391 fps
412 fps
424 fps
440 fps
446 fps
453 fps
448 fps
450 fps
451 fps
445 fps


So as noticed in my initial tests of the KM Custom Parts mag, it performs extremely consistent, from beginning to end.

The stock magazine tended to shoot hot on the first shot, but follow up shots were lower with a bit more deviation.

The all G&G upgraded magazines, however, did not perform as well as my initial tests showed. Although still fairly consistent, the startup shots were a bit low. I'm still investigating whether it is the case of a weak striker spring, or if it's because the spring guide in the bolt had started to back out of the cocking piece again (It came out about 1 turn.)

I'm currently waiting for some blue loctite to cure on the threads, and then I'll reassemble with that to see the results.
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Old August 1st, 2007, 17:05   #128
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Hey Brian, I found some more parts for you to test

http://www.armamentia.com/

Never heard of this company before, but they have some seriously interesting products. Hop about a hopup replacement that swaps the Tanaka hopup unit, rubber and barrel for a VSR10 hopup, rubber, and barrel?




Or a CNC'd reinforced magazine block to stop magazine swell when overpressured (using propane)?



And what about this crazy looking gearset for AEG's?

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Old August 1st, 2007, 22:44   #129
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On closer inspection, I may need to get that magazine block myself.

Referring back to my issue at post #117 of this thread, I decided to check something out. I stripped my AICS down to the frame and removed the barrel and trigger assembly, then held the frame against a backdrop of a bright light and examined how the magazine fit, looking for light on either side. It seems my mag pinches on either side, about 1.5" from the top.

On a whim, I flipped the mag over and inserted it upside down. Imagine my surprise when it fit perfectly and slipped almost completely through the magwell - until the last 1.5" from the top, where it pinched again. It seems my mag bulges out, just like the diagram on the site above shows. Weird. I guess tomorrow I have to take my mag apart. I don't have a digital caliper of my own, but I'm gonna try and find one and check the exterior dimensions of my mag to confirm the bulge.
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That was a very bad move on your behalf. Sort of like cutting off your foot for money, but not getting the money first and then letting the person with the money run away.
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Liberals rely on emotion. Conservatives rely on evidence, and the Socialists rely on everyone else.
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Old August 2nd, 2007, 03:05   #130
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OOOOOOOH...... That all looks so incredibly sexy... Just the red mag alone is sweet.

Alright, looks like I'll have to open up some comms with Calibre and see if I can get a line on those parts...
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Old August 2nd, 2007, 04:39   #131
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Those Aeg Gears looks pimp! Must have!
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Old August 2nd, 2007, 13:50   #132
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I love the info in this thread.

In your guys experience, is the KJW M700 in fact 100% compatible with the Tanaka? I'd love to get the consistancy of my gun to float as nice as illusions. Mine shoots great, but every once in a while I get a flyer even with nice ammo and a clean barrel, so I'm thinking that it's variance in my gas output from shot to shot.
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Old August 2nd, 2007, 14:31   #133
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Originally Posted by pivot View Post
I love the info in this thread.

In your guys experience, is the KJW M700 in fact 100% compatible with the Tanaka? I'd love to get the consistancy of my gun to float as nice as illusions. Mine shoots great, but every once in a while I get a flyer even with nice ammo and a clean barrel, so I'm thinking that it's variance in my gas output from shot to shot.
Not with the AICS, which has a different hopup bucking and inner barrel, as well as outer barrel.

However, here's some links to upgrades and parts reviews of the Tanaka M700 (which probably works just as well for the KJW):

http://content.airsoftsniper.co.uk/?p=12
http://www.mnairsoft.org/howtos/Inst...ns_for_G&G.htm

(in French) http://www.sniperland.net/portail/in...d=43&Itemid=70
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That was a very bad move on your behalf. Sort of like cutting off your foot for money, but not getting the money first and then letting the person with the money run away.
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Old August 18th, 2007, 13:11   #134
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Looks like Pax Armamentia has a new 30mm outer diameter CNC'd stainless fluted outer barrel for the AICS:

http://www.armamentia.com/front/php/...isplay_group=2



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That was a very bad move on your behalf. Sort of like cutting off your foot for money, but not getting the money first and then letting the person with the money run away.
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Old August 19th, 2007, 00:12   #135
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Wow, stainless steel? As if the gun weren't already heavy enough? lol.

I've tried contacting Pax Armentia, but the email address they have listed on the site doesn't work...
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