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-   -   illegal to buy/sell DND issued CADPAT? (https://airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=105618)

Drache June 8th, 2010 20:10
illegal to buy/sell DND issued CADPAT?
 
Quote:
To further confuse the issue, we occasionally encounter "GENUINE-ISSUE CADPAT CLOTHING" on eBay. Here, there are 2 possible sources. The first, is used or defective "seconds" military-issue CADPAT clothing that was mistakenly sold as surplus by Base Supply Organizations who dicked up and did not follow DND direction that any and all non-serviceable CADPAT items are to be "rendered to rags" before selling as scrap. Some Base supply sections did not follow this directive (before getting their pee-pee's soundly slapped), and as a result there IS some genuine DND-issue CADPAT clothing for sale on the open market. It is all either used, or damaged, or otherwise determined to be "non-serviceable" (eg. no suitable for re-issue to a serving soldier). The case in Alberta where Edmonton Garrison sold off many tri-walls of used and defective CADPAT combat clothing to a local entrepreneur and then tried (abortively to claim it back) is a case in point. As a result, there are now many thousands of used and defective genuine-issue CADPAT uniforms available for sale on the open market (eBay included). Good going guys....

The other source of genuine DND-Issue CADPAT available on eBay are uniforms that were stolen directly from the CF supply system. These tend to be the "mint/unissued" uniforms that are offered from time to time, usually by UK or US-based sellers. Why the foreign offerings? Very simple - those who are actively stealing genuine DND-issue CADPAT uniforms and equipment (Tac-Vests, Bivvy Bags, etc) from within the CF supply system know that the Military Police have a mandate to aggressively pursue such breaches of operational security, and therefore flog their stolen goods through off-shore second parties.

It is safe to say that anyone who chooses to purchase a DND-issued item of CADPAT (uniform, Tac Vest, etc) is trafficking in unquestionably stolen goods. As always, conscience contends with opportunity....

A friend of my cousin's who is a soldier stationed in Cold Lake told me that all DND issued CADPAT gear will never be sold as surplus as and as such buying/selling it could get you into a lot of trouble. This all happened after my cousin was found to be in possession of a complete CADPAT BDU, vest, helmet, you name it, the complete kit. It was all given to him about 4 years before. He had 3 MP's come by and ask for the stuff back, including the CADPAT pants he was wearing at the time (at least what he told me).

Can any of the current serving CF members attest to this?

Styrak June 8th, 2010 20:56
Yes, selling issued gear is a no-no.

Drake June 8th, 2010 21:11
It's "possible" since MPs are considered Peace Officers in Canada. And technically he's in possession of stolen goods, from the CF's perspective.

But at the same time, someone has to have tipped them off. As mentioned, there is some genuine CadPat in circulation, which was purchased from surpluses in Good Faith, so you can't just randomly knock people down who have it.

Kid June 8th, 2010 21:27
Best things in life are illegal.

We get our guns through questionable methods and now we get our gear that way too.

Ah, I can remember the time of Greylocks, when everyone was conservative and had insisted on following the law to the T... until they realized it would mean buying Cansoft.

Drache June 8th, 2010 21:48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake (Post 1251263)
It's "possible" since MPs are considered Peace Officers in Canada. And technically he's in possession of stolen goods, from the CF's perspective.

But at the same time, someone has to have tipped them off. As mentioned, there is some genuine CadPat in circulation, which was purchased from surpluses in Good Faith, so you can't just randomly knock people down who have it.
But the only items that seemed to have slipped through were BDU's and not vests, helmets, etc.

Personally I think it's a little BS that they dont surplus CADPAT :D

pugs144 June 8th, 2010 23:00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drache (Post 1251226)
Can any of the current serving CF members attest to this?
All true.

Rugger_can June 8th, 2010 23:04
Im of the opinion that wearing kit that should be in the hands of our fighting men and women is irresponsible and disrespectful. If you acquired your kit New from a legitimate source then power too you (for example CPGEAR ect..)

Just my opinion though

Cheers

Gato June 8th, 2010 23:30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drache (Post 1251226)
Can any of the current serving CF members attest to this?
True as it gets, all that shit in surplus stores "fell off a truck" and didn't get destroyed

mcguyver June 8th, 2010 23:42
DND sold a couple containers of issued CADPAT to a surplus shop in Morinville about 4-5 years ago. They didn't realize it until after that the stuff was complete and usable. They tried to get it back, but it was ruled that once they sold it as surplus, it was a done deal. This was the stuff you saw floating around e-Bay and such selling for $700/set back then.

That was the only legal CADPAT sets out there, and I suspect some of them left the country. A&A got some a few years ago, but it was cut up into strips.

T_A_N_K June 8th, 2010 23:58
So for buyers knowledge, how does one know if what they buy is properly surplus'ed or not? or what to look for when buying CADPAT legally.

Drache June 9th, 2010 00:02
Quote:
Originally Posted by T_A_N_K (Post 1251395)
So for buyers knowledge, how does one know if what they buy is properly surplus'ed or not? or what to look for when buying CADPAT legally.
If it looks brand new, it's stolen. Other than that sometimes some surplus dealers have been known to mark their surplus to keep track of it. But beyond that you don't know.

From what I heard though the only stuff surplused was BDU's and no helmets, covers, vests, and such like that.

H1TMAN June 9th, 2010 05:30
BDU's are supposed to be destroyed just like everyother CADPAT item when they are beyond repair. Most base clothing stores have an industrial shredder to destory these items.

To end up in a surplus store, the BDU either disappeared from the wearhouse, A soldier sold his kit to the surplus and then filed a lost report to get one back or it could be an imitation that is made from material that did not meet specs. Heck, how do you think a pair of CADPAT boots ended up for sale on ASC where there still on trial.

Drache June 9th, 2010 06:08
Quote:
Originally Posted by H1TMAN (Post 1251634)
BDU's are supposed to be destroyed just like everyother CADPAT item when they are beyond repair. Most base clothing stores have an industrial shredder to destory these items.

To end up in a surplus store, the BDU either disappeared from the wearhouse, A soldier sold his kit to the surplus and then filed a lost report to get one back or it could be an imitation that is made from material that did not meet specs. Heck, how do you think a pair of CADPAT boots ended up for sale on ASC where there still on trial.
As one of the other members said, a bunch of CADPAT BDU's was accidentally released as surplus. DND knew they made a mistake and technically even though they were released as surplus, they technically still aren't.

That's like going to a pawn shop and buying a stereo that you think is fine but find out later it's stolen. Even though you bought it from the pawn shop not knowing it was stolen, the police can still confiscate as stolen material.

ex June 9th, 2010 06:10
I just find it odd that 3 MP's show up at your buddies house to grab gear that's been in his possession for 4 years, and he just happens to be wearing a pair of the pants at the time.

bean June 9th, 2010 07:28
I often lounge around my house in cadpat pants. Have you not heard that cadpat is the new dinner wear?

Drache June 9th, 2010 07:33
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex (Post 1251640)
I just find it odd that 3 MP's show up at your buddies house to grab gear that's been in his possession for 4 years, and he just happens to be wearing a pair of the pants at the time.
He opened his mouth to a member of the Canadian Forces while in a bar.

As for wearing CADPAT, I know 3 people who wear their cadpat pants around town. 1 of them hunts in their CADPAT.

Drake June 9th, 2010 08:17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drache (Post 1251668)
He opened his mouth to a member of the Canadian Forces while in a bar.

As for wearing CADPAT, I know 3 people who wear their cadpat pants around town. 1 of them hunts in their CADPAT.

That's the core of the whole story right there.

I've seen some of the CadPat stuff that had been deemed "unserviceable"; some items were in fact severely damaged (rips, holes), faded, etc but a few items were there for stuff like stains. Sure, some stains will affect NIR performance or stuff link ink stains wont come out and look unsightly, but these items (mostly tunics) were still in the lot and perfectly usable for our ends; I have one of the shirts, after a lot of effort getting it clean you won't notice the stain unless you look for it.


Edit: all that stuff was 1st gen, exposed buttons and all; so beware of anything in a more recent cut if you want to be legit.

Drache June 9th, 2010 08:40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake (Post 1251682)
That's the core of the whole story right there.

I've seen some of the CadPat stuff that had been deemed "unserviceable"; some items were in fact severely damaged (rips, holes), faded, etc but a few items were there for stuff like stains. Sure, some stains will affect NIR performance or stuff link ink stains wont come out and look unsightly, but these items (mostly tunics) were still in the lot and perfectly usable for our ends; I have one of the shirts, after a lot of effort getting it clean you won't notice the stain unless you look for it.


Edit: all that stuff was 1st gen, exposed buttons and all; so beware of anything in a more recent cut if you want to be legit.
This stuff still had the bloody nametags and everything else. Like I said the entire kit was there boots and all and SUPPOSEDLY so were NVG's although I never got to see them.

He was a moron and deserved what he got. :D

teriases June 9th, 2010 09:07
illegal to buy/sell DND issued CADPAT?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drache

This stuff still had the bloody nametags and everything else. Like I said the entire kit was there boots and all and SUPPOSEDLY so were NVG's although I never got to see them.

He was a moron and deserved what he got. :D
Bloody name tags?? Uhhhhhh.... :o

Lerch June 9th, 2010 09:11
Quote:
Originally Posted by bean (Post 1251666)
I often lounge around my house in cadpat pants. Have you not heard that cadpat is the new dinner wear?
You don't have the new COAT, HOUSE, LTWT?


Vary nice when you don't feel like wearing gitch...

JattSoorma June 9th, 2010 18:12
So where do you get CADPAT legally?

-Skeletor- June 9th, 2010 18:36
Quote:
Originally Posted by JattSoorma (Post 1251928)
So where do you get CADPAT legally?
Join the Canadian Forces.

Or the next best thing to have CADPAT uniform, get the Frontenac stuff.

H1TMAN June 9th, 2010 19:50
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Skeletor- (Post 1251941)
Join the Canadian Forces.

Or the next best thing to have CADPAT uniform, get the Frontenac stuff.
Or pay a fistful to CPGEAR.

The Chad June 10th, 2010 00:25
Okay so, you are required to hand over all of your issued kit to supply at the time of your departure from the CF. BUT!! Most supply techs will let you keep (Oops, let's just cross that out) certain kit items like BDUs, and boots.

Who cares if BDUs and boots are passed along? If it was a goretex jacket or a kevlar helmet, then I can see why it would be an issue. Personally I would not appreciate a pair of combat pants that had the inner thighs wore out from someone else, that's a lot of crotch sweat that went through that. These things are NOT JUST battle dress but also their DAY TO DAY uniform since the CF work dress was pooped on.

pugs144 June 10th, 2010 07:53
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chad (Post 1252123)
Okay so, you are required to hand over all of your issued kit to supply at the time of your departure from the CF. BUT!! Most supply techs will let you keep (Oops, let's just cross that out) certain kit items like BDUs , and boots.
Combats MUST be turned in. Next-to-skin items like socks and underwear you can keep.

-Skeletor- June 10th, 2010 08:42
Quote:
Originally Posted by H1TMAN (Post 1251970)
Or pay a fistful to CPGEAR.

CP Gear is one retailer that sells Frontenac clothing..

None of the CADPAT clothing, Tac Vests, etc on CP Gear is issue gear.


The Chad, like Pugs said Combats must be turned in. All Operational/CADPAT clothing is returned when you release from the CF, you only get to keep next to skin items, boots and your DEUs.

Loathing June 10th, 2010 08:58
Last I saw you had to turn in your combat boots as well, unless you mean your ankle boots and oxfords which yea you do keep.

Butt486 June 10th, 2010 09:39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loathing (Post 1252263)
Last I saw you had to turn in your combat boots as well, unless you mean your ankle boots and oxfords which yea you do keep.
Seems to be up to the fella behind the desk. I have exchanged boots many times, I have kept a few pairs, and gave a few back. They put a hole punch in the tongue of the boot and throw them in the surplus bin. As for parade boots and the oxfords, I have never had to bring them into supply, but I am under the impression we keep them when we are released.

-Skeletor- June 10th, 2010 10:25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loathing (Post 1252263)
Last I saw you had to turn in your combat boots as well, unless you mean your ankle boots and oxfords which yea you do keep.

With the issued combat boots the Supply person will determine the wear on the boots, if they are too worn out the member will retain them, but if they are in good condition still and are useable Supply will take them back and reissue them to someone else.

And yea oxfords and ankle boots you retain, same with all DEU items and whatever else you can find off that Logistik Unicorp site.

Janus June 10th, 2010 10:35
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Skeletor- (Post 1252297)
And yea oxfords and ankle boots you retain, same with all DEU items and whatever else you can find off that Logistik Unicorp site.
I love that site. Free t-shirts.

I wonder if I have enough points to order every turban in the warehouse. :D

pugs144 June 10th, 2010 10:39
Don't worry, I won't rat out non-CF dudes wearing CADPAT to the meatheads lol.

Kokanee June 10th, 2010 11:06
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janus (Post 1252303)
I wonder if I have enough points to order every turban in the warehouse. :D
They actually stopped listing the dress turban on everyone's Logistic profile after there was a run on them. I forget the exact figures, but there are few few people in the CF who legitimately wear turbans as part of their dress uniform, and wayyyy too many people were ordering them for shits and giggles. Now you have to go to your OR and have them put a request in to Logistic to have it added to your profile.

scottyfox June 10th, 2010 12:17
There's a CANFORGEN from 2002 that deals with this if anyone wants to dig it up, but I'm not at work.
Nothing new really, mostly what's been said by Kokanee and others.

pugs144 June 10th, 2010 12:22
This CANFORGEN has already been covered time and time again. Can't really understand why we keep flogging this expired equine. Foreign nationals looking to acquire CADPAT kit can go suck it. Solicit on other forums but don't expect help here.

Quote:
CANFORGEN 120/02 DSSPM 0089 300845Z OCT 02
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. CANADIAN FORCES SUPPLY MANUAL (CFSM) A-LM-007-014-AG-001 CHAPTER 3 SECTION 2 PARAGRAPH 2
B. CANADIAN FORCES SUPPLY MANUAL (CFSM) A-LM-007-014-AG-001 CHAPTER 28 ANNEX D APPENDIX 13
C. NATIONAL DEFENCE ACT (NDA) PART III CODE OF SERVICE DISCIPLINE SECTION 116




THE PURPOSE OF THIS MSG IS TO REMIND MEMBERS OF REGULATIONS WITH RESPECT TO ILLEGAL SALE OR DISPOSAL OF CROWN ASSETS.


THE INTRODUCTION OF THE CANADIAN DISRUPTIVE PATTERN (CADPAT) HAS RESULTED IN A BLACK MARKET DEMAND FOR CAMOUFLAGE ITEMS WHEREBY CADPAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT HAVE BECOME QUOTE HOT TICKET UNQUOTE COLLECTABLES.


REF A DEFINES COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT AS A QUOTE PERSONAL ALLOTMENT UNQUOTE ACCOUNTED FOR ON AN INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNT (IA) AND ARE RETAINED BY INDIVIDUALS AS LONG AS THEY CONTINUE TO MEET THE ENTITLEMENT PARAMETERS OF THE APPLICABLE ENTITLEMENT GROUP CODE (EGC). COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT INCLUDING CADPAT ITEMS ARE CROWN ASSETS AND MUST RPT MUST BE SURRENDERED TO THE SUPPLY SYSTEM WHEN ENTITLEMENT NO LONGER EXISTS. SERVICEABLE CADPAT RPT CADPAT ITEMS WILL BE RETAINED AND RE-ISSUED WHILE ITEMS BEYOND ECONOMICAL REPAIR SHALL BE DESTROYED LOCALLY IAW REF B.


NOTWITHSTANDING THE PENALTIES ASSOCIATED WITH UNAUTHORIZED SALE OR DISPOSAL OF COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT AS DETAILED AT REF C, PERSONNEL ARE ALSO REMINDED THAT THE INHERENT CAMOUFLAGE AND NEAR INFRA-RED (IR) CAPABILITY OF CADPAT MATERIAL OR OTHER ITEMS INCORPORATING STATE OF THE ART TECHNOLOGY FALLS UNDER FORCE PROTECTION. SUCH CAPABILITY IN THE WRONG OR ENEMY HANDS JEOPARDIZES THE SAFETY AND SECURITY OF CANADIAN TROOPS. CADPAT PATTERNS AND TECHNICAL DATA ARE PATENT AND COPYRIGHT PROTECTED. ADDITIONALLY, THE DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE (DND) HAS ACQUIRED THE TRADEMARK FOR EXCLUSIVE USE OF THE CADPAT ACRONYM. MEMBERS ARE ADVISED THAT CADPAT COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT IS STILL IN DELIVERY AND EVERY SET COUNTS.


THE DISPOSAL OF COMBAT UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT RESTS WITH DND AND NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WITH THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBER.

Danke June 10th, 2010 12:43
Don't worry when MultiPat comes out there will be floods of surplus relish.

Wait, I've already said to much, red berets are outside the door, signing off,,,

Shotgun509 April 22nd, 2012 21:56
I know this thread is old but certain people are allowed to sell cadpat to civilians and I'm almost certain their cadpat isn't effective vs infra red therefore allowed to sell it

Kokanee April 22nd, 2012 22:15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shotgun509 (Post 1643028)
I know this thread is old but certain people are allowed to sell cadpat to civilians and I'm almost certain their cadpat isn't effective vs infra red therefore allowed to sell it
WRT to clothing, you are referring to "factory seconds" material that is identified as having defects before the IR dip part of the production process. This material is indeed sold to a select group of gear manufacturers to be turned into products for unrestricted sale.

WRT gear and accessories, there is a "good ole boys" list of manufacturers whom take CADPAT cordura and turn it into pouches and the like, again for unrestricted sale. IE: Wheelers.

Not really worth bringing this dead thread back to life... but whatev's.....

http://images.cheezburger.com/comple...9543903276.jpg


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