ARGG!!! PTW VS bolt action? Fair battle?...(Rant)
 

AHH!!! Yesterday I went out to a season opening game, it was a decent turn out with around 30 players. 10 of the 30 players was running a PTW, and the others were either G&G Max series or saw weapons like a L85 or LG36. I was the only one running a BA(of it's off classified BTW). Lucky for me, those 10 PTW guys weren't that great, they were more of a camping type...


It was a extremely annoying/difficult game for me with all those PTWs and SAW in the game. Half the time I was pin at 200 feet! LIKE WHAT THE F***!! At 200 feet, I was able to get a body shot whereas for a PTW that was a easy head shot... I miss those days where most people were running stock/walmart special guns...


I'm starting to feel that I need a PTW to be able to compete with the club I play... The sad part is; I feel that the $1000 I spent on my BA was a waste...


Now, I know some of you are going to tell me that BA should be a sneaky play style... But when they out shoot/out range you, it's very discouraging to sneak around enemy line and just to get shot at...


Does anyone out there feel the same way?... That BA are starting to fall off the chart of a decent weapon of choose?... Word of advice?...

This is the reason why people suggest getting an AEG before you spend your money on a Bolt Action.

What bolt action do you have and what is it upgraded with?

I bought a l96 play an hour with it, said screw it and borrowed an AEG never looked back since. AEG's have volume of fire, and once they get into your MED you cant do anything.
Its highly suggested you get a aeg as secondary or even a gbb as a secondary.
the PTW's I personally cannot justify buying. Get a different brand.

That's why all of ASC tells noobs not to get a BA for their first gun.

Unless you're a clever and stealthy sniper operator and you're patient enough to take shots that won't let the enemy know where you are, then it's a very frustating role to play. Because everyone wants to hit the sniper when they can and many good aegs have the range to rival many sniper rifles.

Get a good guillie suit and be as patient as can be. Then you'll have some good fun with your BA.

My 2 cents

My history with an AEG went like this:
-First AEG EVER! ICS m4
Sold it because fail upgrading(wasn't compatible with TM you see).
-Got a cyber Sig552 for indoor,
Sold it because I didn't like indoor.
-Got a F&F M14 with a rail system
Sold it because it was too heavy and figure "why not go for a BA."
-Ended up getting a ICS M16(don't ask me why).
Sold it because I couldn't use that AEG blowback kit(the one you install in stock)
-Got a G&G M16 with SPR kit
Sold it because it wasn't a BA and I really wanted one after seeing my buddy got so many kills.

-Got a Well L96


It's loaded with:
PDI hop up
Firefly rubber
Madbull barrel with 1 set of spacer
Laylax cylinder and cylinder head with sorbo(spelling?)
Laylax spring guide
Modify piston and piston head(because they were sold out of the Laylax)
450FPS spring (SP120?)
Laylax trigger assembly
And BB Baster 0.36g bbs.


See, my knowledge of airsoft isn't too bad ;)

Ya... I'm starting to feel that way again...



Oh I'm not saying I'm not having fun with my BA, it's just frustrating from time to time lol. Got two awesome kills yesterday. Shot through a 6" winder gap at about 150-200 feet.

Guillies are hard to do in Calgary... And the field isn't very woody... Think of it like a paintball field...

I think it was RAAT that prohibited ghillies because you couldn't feel the hits (due the longer range that an AEG would need to hit you at in comparison to a rifle).

I used to consistantly outrange any field-legal sniper rifle with a PTW, and that includes guns that could be up to 80fps hotter than the PTW. Now, factor in the volume of fire I could unleash, and it was no comparison. That's why you see so many of them on the longer distance fields, and one reason I lobbied to bring the sniper velocity limit up for JOC.

It's not the velocity of the gun per se, but the hop-up that does the work, and the person pulling the trigger.

Ya, I think in the near future JOC will let SPR to shot BA limit as long as their lock in semi. To me, that's a smack in the face for us BA users...

I haven't played on your field but recently a bunch of players from your area came up here for a game. If I was facing those hot PTWs on a weekly basis I'd be on the if you can't beat them, join them kick.

Where the game was I suspect there was a bit of a disadvantage, they couldn't use their primarys effectively in some of the built up areas due to the engagement distance.

So you've got a clone bolt action with a mixed match of aftermarket parts?

Well, since I was going to gut the thing out, didn't see it was necessary to get a mauzen.

As for upgrade, figure I would change out the cylinder and the inner barrel once it was back in stock. But would just the two make that much difference?

Another thing, I saw a tanaka gas sniper, that thing can sure snipe. He was running 0.43g and able to hit a target about 250feet easy, maybe these gas sniper are good?...

I ran both my PTW as well as my bolt action Kar 98k. My BA is completely stock. If you want to run a sniper as a primary do some research. I was lucky in that I'm a WW2 nut and the Tanaka Kar 98k is a very efective sniper rifle in its stock form (with .4g BBBastards). Just because it's a bolt action sniper rifle doesn't mean its going to outrange aeg's out of the box. I've seen some pure garbage sniper rifles.

A lot of people don't understand that upgrade parts aren't compatible with the clone manufacturer's rifles because they have different tollerances in parts.

As for the PTW, it's expensive, but worth it.

The field was lacking cover just due to the fact that it's spring, and this was one of the first outdoor games of the season, so no foliage. There isn't a lot of structures at Warpaint because the field is only just coming up to a year old.

How new are you to using a bolt action (roughly how many hours have you gamed one?)

Any name brand bolt action can be good, it just needs proper upgrades, and to be properly upgraded.

Spring is much more consistent than gas, you can produce more accurate results with a spring rifle than a gas rifle.

Using a bolt action is 90% movement, 10% your gun... don't expect to be standing at the back of the field shooting people's hands as they come out from cover.

Me thinks you need a heavier spring or if your not certified to use more then 450fps a lighter BB My BA is a mess only shooting 400fps right now but with .28 or .30 bbs I way out range a well upgraded AEG and hittin the head or body dont make a diference' just hit them you have stealth and range on your side use them, when i run 500fps i still use .30 start getting into 550+ then use .32
really tho i think if ya adjust yoiur bb's youll find you do have an advantage over the aegs, just get a teammate to stay near u for the guys who entre your MED, witch at 450 fps you dont really gotta worrie about just shoot em in the body its easyer to hit anyhow

450FPS spring (SP120?)
Laylax trigger assembly
And BB Baster 0.36g bbs.


See, my knowledge of airsoft isn't too bad ;)[/QUOTE]

It's not the rifle, it's how you use it.
But with a clone rifle, you have to be pretty clever and close to your target to use it properly.

And I don't find PTW being so different from other AEG on the field.

Agreed, tho I must say i started with a TSD SD700 a VSR10 clone I went PSS10 Cyl, piston, enhanced sears, a 6.02 inner,aded an o-ring on the cyl head threads and even tho it only shots 400 fps on the really dead stock spring (dont worrie i have a sp150 comming lol) id say it outranges most aegs and is more acurate and effective at a longer range due to well tuned hop and .28 or .30
im sure with the 150 spring it'll really shine, that and i need a harder nub in the hop, like i said i use near full hop as it is now, and i figuer i can really get an improvement in groupings and range at 500fps with .20's then prolly get some .32's and more hop

Thats what I'm refering to. "Proper upgrades". I'm no bolt action sniper by any means, never have been. Spring will always be more consistent than gas. I'm not here to get into a sniper pissing contest, just saying that what I do know of spring sniper rifles is that some parts don't work that well with some brands of rifles. Research is the key to build a reliable rifle.

I've always thought it would be interesting to lower the FPS limit of full auto guns to allow the BAs more breathing room.

I bet no one would go for it though.

Be something like:
-AEGs: 350fps
-semi auto only AEGs: 375fps
-BA: 475fps

That is baisicly what we do now, 400fps aegs, 450 BA then you can get certified to use highter fps in a BA up to 550 (lvl3) really we should be aloud that anyhow but it is a great thing that we have to prove to the comunity we can use higher fps safely befor we actually game them it keeps everyone a bit more at ease but in the end we have a 150 fps "bonus"

i saw you running a BA yesterday and you could not hit a guy
within 100 feet, you tried to shoot him three time then ended up mercy killing him
and also next time call your hits , i was standing 50 feet away from you when i saw my team mate
who's defending the satellite objective shot you, you've reacted on the hit but you kept running away

But a high FPS doesn't matter. You still need your projectile to be stable and the best way to achieve that is to run it at a slightly lower power/FPS (I would say 380-420 is around the sweet spot).

@OP: As for the PTW vs BA.... Well.... that's exactly what we're talking about when we tell noobs to not go for that kind of stuff since they'll be severely outgunned. I'm not implying you're a noob but if you're a "pretty good" player and get outgunned by PTW's then total newbies with BA's will get slaughtered by PTW's and regular AEG's.

I do call my hits and I'm sure like everyone I don't feel or hear every hit, in a ghilie for sure , just holler at me Ill take yer word for it lol or you can shot me again or say something to the host. as for my rifle it is a mess was shooting sub 400 And doin some spiral thing I am tearing it apart to have a look at the hop up and have a spring comming only mercy kill i recall was a guy who threw a knife at me and hit my rifle lol

knives was referring to the OP

KNIVES: Didn't realize you were out, next time I have to try to make my way around and introduce myself.

As for the BA role if you aren't running heavy ammo and DOT 44 its pointless :)

I try my best to listen to all hits on my equipment (PC with Hydro) but sometimes it's impossible without a heavy twack to it IE: why aegs are better cause you can shoot a quick burst in semi auto tap them with a few.

As for the campers not sure who you were referring to all games eventually turn defensive unless the objective is constantly moving. I thought the first game of VIP hill attack was pretty much text book for suppressive fire movement.

I'm not sure what you mean Knives or who you were directing that at. I think you maybe talking about me. Anyhow, if what you says was what I thought, I didn't realized/feel the hit until I turn around and saw someone pointing a gun at me. I was running really hard to avoid being hit.

Kolumbo69, that VIP game was a joke. I manage to sneak all the way around to their end of the map and kill 3 guys, but the armor rule kept them alive and gave my position up.. So stupid...

Upping BA fps and downing AEGs isn't a good solution... It'll just make more noobie who want to hurt people go for BA...

Long story short... I just wanted to rant about Systema being the top of the airsoft pyramid and how more and more people are running it... I have a ton of gun running my BA, just sometimes when your pinned by a systema, your screwed....

Was it beans that said something along the lines of:
more pew pew, less qq.

PTWs aren't the king/god of airsoft... I've honestly not once ever been like "aw shit this guy has a PTW, I'm screwed."

Nothing against them, they are great and all.

Airsoft is a good portion player skill. I'm sure you've heard some random say this line before at one time or another, but it's true.

"I've seen guys running a stock TM kick the crap out of guys running <super upgraded omg gun>"

It's true.

I think this thread is about the seasoned vet who knows how to competitively run a stock TM and decides to buy a systema.


Anyways, TLDR: buy a good AEG if you want to go toe to toe with the rich "professional training weapon" crowd.

Consider the following tactic to help improve your experience.


Find and occupy a location where you suspect the enemy will pass through but not linger in.

Determine their possible approach and Setup your weapon to give you maximum firing arc on the most likely possible approach.

Wait until enemies enter your area. Radio your team quietly to inform them of the enemy presence.

Hold off firing until the target(s) are in an optimal range and location, preferably one away from quick access to cover.



This kind of tactic will give you a lot more satisfaction than trying to use a BA rifle as a longarm and trotting about the field.

Cheers.

This thread is the poster child for "reasons why not to get a sniper rifle if you're new to airsoft"

I've engaged riflemen from 60 feet away, ambushed pairs of riflemen, gone toe to toe with SAW's within 120feet, and taken on countless people in marksmen battles.
I have people cower in fear behind cover because they can't shoot out of a 2" wide crack because I have them pinned from 100 feet away.
I make people RUN into the field from respawn at our CQB area because I can tag them from 200 feet away.
And I've had people RUN from my bolt action rifle in an ambush.
It's gone wrong for me plenty of times too.

There's nothing wrong with the rifle or the role, you just need to get better at it!

The ba role is not for everyone that's for sure. Personally I love it and get plenty of kills doing so.

Also keep in mind the field you play on. If there is little to no places to set up and it's more like a speedball field it will be hard to get a good tactical advantage point.

As for the user that said go lighter on your bb's....... Well I would have to disagree. I get the best resaults in my ba rifles with 36,40 and 43 bb's ( depending on the rifle I am using that game)

I think the OP is about being outgunned. I think it plays a large factor if your opponent has an automatic rifle and you BA.

I don't want to sound elitist or snobby or whatever...but here goes...

It's not that the PTW is THE longest shooting, most accurate platform out there...there are certainly all types of other airsoft weapons out there that can be tweaked/tuned/modded to shoot as far/accurately.

It's not that the PTW is out of the box a solid, reliable, accurate, etc...platform. Because truth be told it isn't (IMHO)...each one needs some due dilligence to get it working to it's utmost potential.

It's not that the PTW is a cheap (as in doesn't cost a lot of $$$$ and/or parts don't cost $$$)....it certainly comes with a pretty stiff price tag. Electronics, motors, parts, EVERYTHING about it seemingly costs more relative to other AEG parts.

But rather...the PTW platform is one such that it does readily lend itself to being:
1. Very quickly customizable for FPS and various uppers/barrels/etc
2. Solid, repeatable setup with consistent airseal/firing timing/etc...which leads to good accuracy
3. Hopup system...when the roller cage is modded (not all that hard) it is capable of applying very consistent and effective amounts of hopup to BBs. Personall...mine tends to prefer 0.28's...and will over hop lighter BBs...but it will send all weights of QUALITY BBs out straight and true. It is one of the most shot to shot to 1000th shot consistent hopup systems I've seen....for what amounts to very little work. * this and the consistent air seal is what makes the PTW seem to hit longer and more accurately than other platforms*
4. The trigger response is a little "fake" in that it feels like a push button on a game controller...but the "lag time" between triggering the shot and the shot leaving your muzzle is extremely short...and always consistent...and that leads to top tier accuracy.

The platform can be made to easily do all the above...and once it's running well it tends to do it for a good long time with little to no maintenance/tuning/tweaking/etc...

So...does this make you outgunned? Not in the least. I get zapped all the time :)

If you're feeling down about being outgunned...or are disappointed in putting $$$$ into a BA or whatever and not being the world beater hoard slayer that you thought you'd be........well the issue isn't your gun or someone elses gun.

PS... Truth be told...although it's probably technically "the best" one I've got for accuracy, range, etc...my PTW takes a backseat to both my gas rifles (which DO NOT shoot as far or accurately) and my KA Galil (which sprays a beautiful random pattern of BBs...but is just too much fun to use). I prefer both of those for the action and fun factor...and all in all I probably get and take as many hits with either of them as I do with the PTW. ;)

Depends on your FPS, every weight class of BB has an optimal relative velocity.
For example, I run 430fps and get better range and accuracy out of .28s and .30s than I do at 470fps.
But at 470fps, using .36s makes a HUGE difference over using the less accurate .30s

Like if your using .36g BBs on a stock rifle at around 320fps, you don't have the velocity to get enough spin on the BB, so it's just going to drop really short compared to a .25

Well I think the fact you were running around in jeans and a blue sweater gave your tactical position away...

tactismurf?

apparently....blue is the new MultiCam

I have seen guys with $200 Cyberguns rock the field because they knew what they are doing so if you think it is the gun that is limiting your success...you in da wrong sport there fella........

it takes more than expensive parts to get your bolt action to run well (unless you're lucky). In my experience, people have pretty weird expectations of their guns compared to what they will tolerate when using them. For instance, you'll see people horribly dissatisfied with the range they get from a stock gun, do some expensive upgrades and then be completely content running their aeg without tuning their hop, just 412fps rainbow catapult. That said, there's also a lot of amateur upgrades. Using incompatible parts, installing things backwards, damaging hop rubbers, dangly bouncin around barrels, egg bb's, magazines that move hop units around all over the place... list goes on.

I can tell you for sure though, if you run a properly upgraded boltie (or even a stock marui, you'd be surprised how many kills you could get in the same situation with lower fps) for long enough, you'll have an awareness of how to acquire targets quickly and peg them precisely at long range. That coupled with enough experience fooling people and using cover properly and you can use the extra range to take on teams of multiple guys head on.

In short, you need both a properly shooting gun and loads of experience that can be frustrating to acquire to start getting in the positive k/d's but that's the main draw of bolt actions for most people. It's all about the challenge and once you get good enough you'll not only hold your own but become a serious asset. Last game I had the drop on 6 guys, took them all out before they could spot me in the open with 6 quick shots. Could I have taken them out with an AEG? Yep. Did I get a bigger battleboner doing it this way? Fuckin a right I did.

I was at this game as well but I was probably using the worst gun on site (Kraken) and still did pretty good. I filmed a little at that game as well, so here's just some action mixed together with PTW's, the BA and other high end guns.
YouTube - Extra Footage from April 9th 2011 game at Warpaint

Damn green board, that's where I was pinned till one started suppressive fire while the other ran around and took me out, but I got him as well. In the end, I kept 3 guys from advancing. Pretty sucessful if you ask me.

As for blue jeans and shirt, it got too hot for snow pants so I decided to change into something more comforting.

Ya, tossing all that cash into my BA didn't seem like a good idea at first considering with the same amount I could have gotten a pretty decent AEG. Now that I think back to that game, I can honestly say I'm very impress with my BA. It's the few moment that got me down, but what I did with it really cheered me up.

Looking forward to the next game... Hopefully I'll have a camo ready.

played with my vsr yesterday. I've had problems in the past, which I finally found out was due to my inability to track clear bb's... Switched to whites and it made a world of difference and I ended up getting a random headshot (I didn't think it would hit anyways, and the head was the only thing showing. Also, it skimmed the top, so it didn't hurt too much). Crazy stuff began to happen, like when the bb would go over the river, it took a hard left, and random turbulent spots on the way to the target. I re-fell in love with b/a's