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Rise of trade issues, what the fuck?
Ok, I've been sitting on this for a couple of months now but now I'm just too pissed to do so anymore.
I've been registered here for 7 years and I was lurking a few more before that. Never has there been so many issues posted up than in 2011. We used to get a few a year, but now we seem to get a few a month. Just right now there are around few a month. As a seller I have no issues with dealing with new people, but unfortunately, as of now, I will no longer buy from people with less than a year on their join date and at least a few successful high value deals in their feedback. Still, even then, this is only a stop gap solution and doesn't address the core issue. Over the next days I'll look into all the incidents I can get my hands on and try to distill something useful. Still, every solution I can think of either violates user privacy to an extent or has other undesirable effects. Besides, I don't think anyone here is register friendly. Right now, my better suggestions would be to restrict posting privileges of newer users, a sponsor system and an escrow system. I would also appreciate it if people who have had a previous transaction go south pm me the case info, mainly resolution methods and results. You are more than welcome to PM me this info or post it here, just remember to clear any personal info if you post it publicly. If you know of a case not on the following list, please send me a link to the thread. Discuss. |
By order of thread creation date:
2011 August 13th 128871 July 25th 127890 July 25th 127897 July 22nd 127785 June 23rd 126443 2010 October 7th 112129 August 29th 110062 August 23rd 109712 April 10th 102065 April 1st 101460 2009 September 30th 91110 August 18th 88146 2008 2007 2006 Janurary 30th 20444 2005 2004 2003 and previous Search terms covered: Trade issue Trade issues Trade dispute |
There's a reason I will now only buy shit from a reputable ASC dealer. I'd say 75% of the private buys I've done through the classifieds have been fucked in some way or another. They range from the seller not thoroughly inspecting an item before sending it to me and thus it's not 100% as described, to sellers knowingly shipping me physically broken guns. My favorite was a gun that had the entire front RIS epoxied onto the body. That one spent a day in a machine shop being fixed.
All of these transactions are more than a year old though. I wonder if people are just a) reporting it more, b) we just have more inventory moving through ASC classifieds and thus the rate of problems has gone up, or c) people are in fact scamming more. It would be interesting, though probably not possible, to see if the trade dispute amount vs. "sold" item amount has remained consistent or if it is in fact going up. It's also of interest to note (at least for myself) than in the last year or two the quality of people at airsoft games has declined significantly... it's the main reason I barely play anymore. Coincidence? |
yeah I carry those sentiments... end of last month I made 6 purchases... I only received tracking numbers on Half of them
currently I am chasing 2 people for tracking numbers for purchases that should be here by now... it's kinda sad how many people think "yeah I shipped it" suffices after they have your money in their hands and you sit there wondering WTF is going on. if you don't ship right away cause life got in the way, fine, we're all people , we all understand .. I've never blown up at someone that had something come up and had to take a few more days to ship... but show me the same damn curtisy and gimme the proof you didn't walk away with my cash. Edit: I've been saved the increase in the bullshit appearing of non satisfactory "like brand new" things being sold by just buying broken guns to begin with LOL |
I think it's moreso the "randoms" that make the trade issues. Sure once in a while it will be a fairly reputable member (ie. the whole thing with Lerch who was even in the CF.... AFAIK the 2 people he owes money/items to still haven't gotten their stuff) but for the most part they're usually just "randoms" that get AV'ed and don't really do anything much in the local scene.
I would maybe propose implementing some sort of system where the potential member would have to attend say 2 or 3 games before being able to be AV'ed? Maybe moving to something like the UK system so that players would have to have "proof" of them being players who are serious and plus you meet people and they can vouch or at least have better contact info in case a trade does go south (ie. just had a baby and needs to deal with other things first, or got movement orders and is getting a friend/family member to complete trade). |
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I'll be able to do the analytics correctly once I know I got enough raw data. I'll also try to pull some numbers from the feedback system, but I'll need staff support on this. Still trying to figure out if it's worth it because people are spineless and don't provide negative feedback on sour deals. So I guess this brings us to the first thing to fix... LEAVE FUCKING NEGATIVE OR NEUTRAL FEEDBACK IF YOU FEEL THE TRADE HAS GONE BAD, YOU ARE PROTECTED FROM RETALIATION BY ASC RULES. |
I've had nothing but good deals since 2002 here on ASC; heck I even ship items before I receive payment so I can bill for exact postage, assuming a user has good feedback.
I'm seeing a lot of the problems being new players dealing with each other, and issues arise due to poor communications or players selling broken gear. Also way too many new players who get av'd and have a tiny hiccup in a transaction are too quick on the draw when it comes to posting their dirty laundry in the General section ie: "Ultra Noob screwed me, won't answer emails, tracking number doesn't work" Only after about ten posts does the author then admit that it's only been two days since they sent the money, and the seller was just at the cottage for the weekend.... |
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Would love to see the data for sure.
Yes some of them seem petty but honestly if your going to sell somthing you should have the mindset of the next guy as well. Things like: What would I expect out of a deal? Do I want a tracking number or just to be told its shipped? Would solve alot of this crap. Though there are some people that do need to realize that 48hrs to ship is common. People work weird hours and have messy lives. I dont get off till well after the post office is close and to be able to get to one before work would take me well over 2 hours out of my way of an already long day (love my wife very much for shipping my stuff out :D). Little bit of fore thought on both side would end most of this crap. |
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Well, tracking the threads all over the place brings me to my second request, a trade dispute sub-forum. Right now there are no clear place to make disputes so they appear all over.
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i think a trade dispute forum is a great idea, i personally would put it in the restricted age section, and if not solved then have it moved to the general.
id like to say we should have volenteers to help out with long distant trade diputes. stocko is currently doing this for me. im not saying a lynching party, but a group of guys in major areas willing to go to the homes of the accused and sort things out face to face. its easy to ignore a pm, not so easy to ignore people at your door! |
Holy shit, are you people that new to internet deals..
Just like the game/ engagement ask questions, if you dont know ASK Help Is here Pm anyone here To justify myself I'm a eBay member since 1999 All positive |
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So yeah :D |
to armoured shell, i asked everything i needed to, and my item was never shipped.
i have faith in the honesty of people, and i got burned for it, its not because im a girl, or because im nieve. its because the seller lied to me and chose fraud over the right thing. i am taking your post personally, but only because i would like to see more inforcment, and more information on those that have been burnt, and those holding the torch |
I've had only good deals with ASC but I am very careful, always check the seller's rating, and prefer reputable sellers or people with some post count or existing threads.
always ask for pictures. Shitty cellphone pics+excuse give a good insight on how the seller cares for his business: to be avoided. a propension to give excuses and too much information should be a warning.On the seller side, buyers with a slow cash flow will most probably waste your time. |
Deal Locally, deal in person to avoid any "miscommunications"
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Kaylyn And all others who have been burnt or mislead by a deal
Chose a pay method that protects the buyer, not the seller Paypal use to be the the leader in this but in past years has, well has sucked As stated buy local if you can, I can quote a name or two, but that's edmonton area, I myself have have purchased over 800.00 dollars worth of parts and aegs in the last couple months Research and ask , buy ? , if in question ask others No stupid questions, The smart talk the wise listen, in the end we all learn |
yes i agree with what you are saying armoredshell, and everyone else. but paypal will not help in a "trade" situation. and that is what i was thinking of with the "airsoft officer" type idea. for example, i pay a reputible member in the area of the trade issue to pick up my item from the said seller. i then pay him to ship the item to me. that is the "plan" with stocko. now if it doesnt work out for him to pick up, i guess i will have to press charges. but if it does work, i now have my said item, stocko will have a little extra cash, and the "seller" will have realized that he gave me his address, phone number, and name so he cant hide from his problems.
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I'm in the middle of a transaction involving Paypal, haven't used them in years, and I can't recall if they used this idea back then, but it could be something worth thinking about here:
Using an escrow. (is that the right word?) Paypal has taken the money from the purchasers account and is holding it in escrow until I provide them with a tracking number to verify that I have in fact shipped the item in question, once I do that they will release the funds to me. According to Paypal the buyer has no access to the money, and cannot cancel the payment. I'm not sure what exactly is involved in setting something like that up here, nor how popular an idea it would be (personally I don't like it, unless I know the buyer I never ship before I confirm receipt of funds, I generally ballpark the shipping cost, or just add 10/20 bucks to the price of what I'm selling, or take the cost myself if it's a small thing) but it could be worth thinking about, at least. Or the proverbial 'two of you' could invite a third party to act as such for your transaction yourself, if you'd like. |
trader rating and how long they've been with asc says alot with what ive learned. like hell if the guys AV'd just a month ago and is selling some "high end upgraded" aeg at a "reasonable price" red flags start popping up in my eyes.
a HUGE problem is this sport has gained popularity in leaps and bounds over the past couple years that yes more and more issues will arise. it never helps with new stores that dont follow age guidelines that ASC and other retailers in canada have made into stone to sell airsoft guns to (ie crappy tire and the new cabelas in edmonton selling to people less then 18). I dont blame anyone but the guilty parties for this. When what i call 'illegitimate' people start playing the sport issues always come into play. its something we either we have to deal with now and immediately as it arises or itll push loyal players from the game. |
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That's an escrow service. At the very least it adds costs for the second shipping wave, plus what ever handling fee since there would have to be tests to figure out the true condition. Personally I would be willing to do this but with the new wave of penny pinching players adding more money to the price tag would probably not make it work on a wide scale. |
if you are collecting threads, heres another one made by my friend
http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=127207 searching ripped off or scammed might bring up a few more. I was gonna get AVed before, was gonna go out of my way and go to the Toronto Airsoft store to do it. But now, with alll this, and it happening to my friend, im not gonna bother. Just gonna wait for a time and place that is convenient for me or not get AVed at all since retailers dont need AV. |
It's still the beast way to get gear. I don't want to start a panic with all this, I think Kokanee is on to something that might explain the spike here.
I'll include the terms in the second pass, thanks! |
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I've only been burned once on ASC, half of it was due to the fact that I was too eager to buy. Two guys took a while to send me their shit, but I got it eventually. I've bought, but mostly sold online, probably over 300-400 transactions. Guys just need to learn to walk away if it feels wrong. I usually buy from friends anyways.
I mostly always buy locally on things that can "break" or are mechanical. You can't really break load bearing gear and not make it obvious. Also, I am confident that no one has ever had a bad transaction with me. |
personally, I would like to know the age of these people filing the complaints, as kokanee said, sometimes the seller is just unavailable for a day or two and buyers freak out because transaction and communication was not instantaneous.
A lot of young people are very demanding and require you to hold their insecure little hands through an entire transaction every minute of the way. I'm not saying all people are like this, but I notice this in other hobby communities too where young people are buying into. The new wave of people want it now, not a couple weeks from now. Hell I can't even get standard shipping anymore to save money, everyone ships express which is like 3x the cost. |
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There's actually quite a few more which got PM'd to me directly and its a safe bet other admins (and mods) get PMs too. Quote:
THIS is a big part of what's going on. Not entirely, there's some real problems with trades happening, but some people freak out the second things don't happen instantly. You don't have to sit on a deal for months, but give people a couple of days to ship stuff; understand people have lives and may not be sitting in front of their computer 24/7, etc. Another problem is some people a fucking cheap. They'll haggle over $5 (for $500+ worth of stuff being shipped) and take the slowest (cheapest) shipping method with no insurance and no tracking... THEN play the victim when something goes wrong. It should almost be mandatory that shipping include a tracking number and if sub-forum did end up being created I think I'd want to see that rule added. There's also some ambiguity with feedback, since bad trades which do get resolved rarely end with negative feedback being left: in fact if the seller adds a little "extra" to compensate for the problem, the buying will usually end up leaving Positive. Sometimes its an honest mistake on the seller's end and "making up for it" is the right thing to do -- and that deserves positive feedback. But in other cases it only masks the problem. Sure you'll get your stuff in the end, maybe with a little extra something, but you'll have to wait and fight for it. So maybe more detailed feedback is in order. I know I've also been a lot quicker to pull AV status for repeat offenders and particularly troublesome users (HINT: if I PM you about a trade dispute, ignoring my PM is a fantastic way to guarantee you'll lose your AV status permanently. Fucking idiot.) |
I know this may seem like a stupid question but can you get law enforcement involved? Say for fraud or theft of such and such over 500$ or under 500$?
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I had a deal go south back in december/january that i took up with the mods rather than making a thread about it.
Long story short, tabs for the retaining plate in the p90 i bought were shot, resulting in me having to buy a brand new tm body 130$ later to get the p90 working properly. All i was able to do was leave negative feedback for the guy and watch him sell more stuff to people, and hope that none of them got screwed over either. |
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I still have a outstanding trader dispute from June where I got burned on a huge 4 digit purchase. I left negative feedback as well. I have tried to the resolve the issue before going public by giving the guy 2 extensions. First a 30days and now a 14 days and it will expire in 5 days. I have been very patient but this kind of behavior for online transactions is just disgusting.
These two last transaction has been too sour and has put me over the edge. A list of a wall of shame or sticky of names of people who are banned for fradulent transactions. Or even a separate section for trader disputes to keep track of the numbers of case's. But I know the mods work load would probably increase alot. And there would be alot of petty disputes. I am just going to stick to retailers as everyone has suggested and save myself the grief. |
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So law enforcement Can be contacted and will take action? If so how useful is it in getting your product or money back? Just out of curiosity.
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As for actual results I can't tell but in theory there shouldn't be any issues, but as all things airsoft YMMV.
It's been done in the past. |
I get the sellers
Real name Telephone number Residential address personal e-mail address before I send money. I have not had any issues as yet. Due diligence pays off. if you don't do it, don't complain Also.. asking.. are they issues regarding this item that you have not mentioned to me? if you were going to rate the condition of the item 1 being NIB 5 being useful for parts only. how would you rate it? |
If the seller will only meet at Pacific Mall, that is another deal stopper.
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ASC'S popularity has exploded and the new wave of enthusiasts is great! Web classifieds have a whole new dimension that grump old fkrs don't understand scammers vs instant gratification. Scammers will sell you a product they don't have and tell you 6-8 weeks for delivery is normal. But the high speed HD internet on my Ipod geek expects what he expects delivered tomorrow.....or sooner. The old guard here though grew up with an expectation of qualityand value, a mistrust of advertizing and a certain respect for peers. Trade Issues, dude we have a whole Cornicopia of issues and Trade is one of them. Mercy rules, calling hits, minors, honour systems, board access game access elites and noobs. Everything is louder now, its a growing pain hope the scarrs look good afterwards.
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Brian i find your solution to be of brilliance, is there any chance we could sticky it? Its a perfect template for buying and selling on ASC as for ArmyIssue i completely agree with your stance especially on the topic of elitism. ASC has become more of a school playground mixture than a functional family, then again i don't know a single completely functional family, haha
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just to add to that, can we have a wall of shame for people with trade disputes? Perhaps a nice shinny tag under their name as well?
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Wall of shame sounds great, but just check their trade rating for the tag part. I always check their rating before buying. |
Brian nailed it.
Check out the seller. Get their details. If there's ever a doubt, there's no doubt, so don't do it. You wouldn't stick your dick in a strange pusssy without protection. Why would you fork over several hundred plus dollars to a stranger without taking similar protective measures? Set a clear expectation of payment and/or delivery. If the conditions were met, good feedback is issued. If not, even a minor deviation, neutral. If a serious deviation, negative. As per Koke's statement, as long as the seller says "Oh btw, I'm going to be at the cottage all weekend without internet access", then that should be fine since you're setting the expectation up front. |
Please do your research before buying from anyone that goes for anything you buy online. Look at reviews look for contact information like Brian suggested and the seller feedback. If something seems weird it probably is. See the 100 shootsoft threads for more info on that. Buying from a reputable seller and communicating properly between parties solves a lot of issues. Always ask all the questions you need to before you send them money.
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