tech practice gun
 

hi i'm kind of new to Airsoft, only known about the sport for 1.25 years and i own two nice guns an ICS M4 and a VFC scar-L. the only thing is i have never seen the inside of an Airsoft gun and thought its time i did. so i'm in the market to buy a new cheap gun and upgrade the sh*t out of it, i was looking at the velocity arms G36 and AK47. now i would like to know your opinion on these two guns and if there good guns to upgrade, i would also like to know if there are cheaper guns out there that would meet my needs. now i understand i'm not AV'ed so you don't have to tell me where to buy said guns i just need to find guns to upgrade.

thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
Kyle Milliken.

I would say get another M4 type, they're one of the easiest to open up.

but same brand?

I figured out how to fix a gearbox on a Kraken. I found it a little easier than an M4, mostly because the version 3 gearboxes dont make you put the gaerbox back in the body to test it like version 2s do. That Kraken became my test eveything platform. In the end all thats still Kraken is the outer barrel assembly, a little of the wiring, and the trigger and trigger guard. Everything else is aftermarket, and now its one of my most solid guns, and has stupid long range, but only average accuracy at that range because of the crappy AK style sights.

Actually I find V3's (AK's in particular) the easiest to get to and work on.

I would say something with a V3, probably an AK, as you can test the gearbox before reassembly.

A kraken (Aftermath/CYMA AK-47) is an excellent learning tool. They're cheap and the V3 mechbox is easy to learn on.

I'm going to disagree a little on the kraken and throw out some food for though.

The tolerances on those things are terrible... It's like learning to ride a bike but the wheels wobble and bend in all different directions

so stick with the two guns i listed in my first post and after i get use to the v3 gearbox move on to the v2.

V3 is supposedly easier to work on but I've only worked on V2's all my life. I don't do work for others only on my own stuff so yeah it's just work on V2's for me which I find fairly easy if you can easily grasp mechanical design concepts.

Also, if you want to learn how to work on internals it might be more cost effective to just buy a drop in gearbox (or gearbox shell, but the danger of piecemealing the shell and all of the other internals is that you're spending way more money than if you bought a drop in gearbox and a few key upgrade parts) and just work that portion irrespective of the rest of the externals. Obviously you won't be able to do hop up/bucking/barrel since that mates up to the gearbox from the front end but for the rest of the internals; spring, ARL, compuression parts, gears, tappet plate, etc. it'll be perfect.

My vote goes for either the VFC or Guarder shells and just build up from there if you want to build your own, otherwise buy a complete gearbox and put in a few key upgrades but then again there's not much you need to do in a VFC gearbox since as far as I can tell they're solid gearboxes;

http://airsoftgear.ca/index.php?main...roducts_id=902
http://airsoftgear.ca/index.php?main...roducts_id=506
http://airsoftgear.ca/index.php?main...oducts_id=1010
http://airsoftgear.ca/index.php?main...roducts_id=505
http://airsoftgear.ca/index.php?main...roducts_id=951

and here's a review of the retailer in question; http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showpos...6&postcount=25

Also it should be pretty obvious by now that I'm well acquainted with the staff at that specific retailer (being a player for this amount of time it's pretty hard not to know about the different retailers). I give them my seal of approval as well.

V2's and V3's are about the same for me. But, I have noticed more parts compatibility issues with V2's.

My only real problem with V2's are the guns they come out of. Breaking down my mp5 takes way too much time to get at the gearbox lol

Fixed, :D

If you spend $300 upgrading a shitty gun, it's still a shitty gun.
You throw $75 into your ICS M4 and you'll see a huge difference in performance.
Piston/piston head, cylinder head, air nozzle and hop rubber

It is a CA B&T. Nice try dumbass!

CA's are easy to take apart! Unless you don't have a CA lower that slides out of the upper...
Try taking apart a TM MP5 and compare!

gotta have patience with CYMA anti reversal latches :D

I agree that the CA MP5's are REALLY easy to take apart compared to TM
CA MP5's are built just like the G3 series, take the stock off, take the front body pin off and the whole thing just slides out

best gun to practice on? your own. you become very highly motivated to make sure everything is in order.

*raises hand* guilty.

No kidding. Practice makes perfect. Practice on your own gun and if you can't put the damn thing back together (also guilty :D) just go find a gun doc to reassemble it.

Also, if you ever happen to find a $40 AEG with your preferred box, buy it and take it apart. A $40 or 50 POS is easier to put down than a $400 ex-beautiful piece.

BTW, dumb means deaf. So calling someone dumb isn't telling them they are stupid, it's calling them deaf. And that is stupid because you read forums, not listen to them. Ok, enough of me being a smart-ass :P

just buy a mechbox and work on it though that doesn't work too well for v2s.

ok sweet thanks for all the help but i don't want to buy a GB shell i want the whole gun so when i'm done i can also practice my painting skills. so the original question still stands, should i get a velocity arms G36 or AK47 as a practice gun to hone my teck skill and painting skills or are there cheaper better brands for this project. but thank you guys for all the time you've put in to this subject.

If you want something to get practice, just buy a cheapo complete mechbox and familiarize yourself with the guts. Not expensive at all.

After that, the other stuff is rather easy to pick up.

Don't waste your time with cheap guns.

but i heard such a good review on the gun in question.

I think that if you are going to practice painting, what you should do is go to home depot, buy one of those sheets of plastic or go to walmart and buy a clearsoft and practice your design on that. If you do get the clearsoft, you only waste like $20, but you could probably have a matching gun to go with your future AEG.

And yeah, you'd be better off just buying a cheap mechbox and then practicing on that. If it breaks, you won't be heartbroken. My friend tried to practice on his own M4 and broke it, so now he is stuck with a paperweight and no working gun.

Apologies to Mr. Freeze, no offense intended, but... don't get a clearsoft gun as your tech learning platform. This is a bad idea.

Those guns are much easier to gimp beyond repair than a proper full metal AEG with a decent mechbox, and the price difference is narrow enough that it's not worth cheaping out. You'll strip a threading or crack something much quicker, not to mention cheap clearsoft stuff (as mentioned above) has terrible tolerances and you'll be struggling with the WRONG LESSONS instead of actually learning the fundamentals of compression, AoE, wiring, gears, shimming, motor height, neo motors vs. non-neo motors, etc. You'll be getting all the heartbreak without any of the wisdom. Just don't do it.

For those in here telling you to start with a cheap TM off the AV used market or something, that's an exception since you'll have excellent on-spec tolerances and can easily use a wide array of standard parts, all the way from cheap to expensive, and you're not as likely to crack or strip something if you're not forcing things (due to bad tolerances).

Seriously, don't waste your time working on "cheap" stuff. Note my choice of words, cheap doesn't always mean inexpensive. The bang for buck here is important. The other thing you need to think about is what's easily available to find parts for. With non-AR guns and unknown-brand stuff, it's going to be harder.

Your best choice for learning how to be a mechbox hero is to buy the least expensive full metal AEG you can find - a King Arms M4 - and taking it from stock to amazing. With an AEG of this caliber you have very little chance of permanently screwing anything up that you can't repair, even the parts of the bolt release are available for cheap (the parts market in Canada has tons of super-inexpensive KA and SHS parts, these are both KA).

and then following a rough lesson plan like:

1) Shimming and motor height (these go together like bread and butter) until the gun sounds perfect - the first thing to do on a stock gun.
2) Analyzing and adjusting angle of engagement with sorbo and/or washers and shaving piston teeth to reduce chance of piston engagement and shredding problems as you keep upgrading.
3) Testing compression system and improving it with better o-rings / Teflon / floss mod / lubrication / tappet plate mod / nozzle swap / etc.
4) Bushing swaps.
5) Piston swaps.
6) Troubleshooting misfeeds and problems with hopup, buckings, nubs.
7) Upgrading from Tamiya connectors to Deans, soldering bullet connectors to snake through the receiver-handguard gap.
8) Motor upgrade

You want to be learning the above lessons, not the lesson where you sit around JB welding a cracked part or the lesson where you need to sand down the interior of your gearbox shell because no aftermarket bushings work because the bushing holes are out of spec... etc :)

Well, think of it this way, right now you have a couple of BMWs you want to push up to Ferrari performance level. You want to get some practice in, so you're considering getting a Civic. Same basic principles apply, but if you pursue the project with the Civic you'll only end up with a riced up piece of crap that will cost you a lot of money.

Sure, it will go fast in a straight line, but none of the refinements will be there. Resale value will be shit, and in the end since you really only need to practice working on the engine you might as well just buy that and hone your skill.

Long story short, these guns are rather bleh, and the reviews come from people with no access to better stuff. Buy a mechbox to practice, transfer the parts to one of your guns after, and don't look back.

I like your analogy but I think this is where it breaks down. Whereas a Civic will still likely at least function, the risk with going the cheap route here is that when upgrading or messing with a very very cheap or off-spec gun is that it might end up being DOA, even after a lot of work.

Will race you in my "ricer" civic anyday;) But ya I see what you are saying;)

oh goodie, MaciekA commented on here, i was hoping you would pop up sooner or later seeing as how i'm talking about a gun you reviewed. so you also agree i should just buy an "engine" and work on it instead of buying a "cheap civic"? because if so i well take your advice seeing as how you have the gun in question.

Never said it was hard. Said it takes too much time.

Clearly the subtle sarcasm of an 'lol' at the end of a sentence is too far above you!

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of love for Hondas in stock form or slightly upgraded. Where I tune out is when people try to make it into something it is not, a high-end sports car.

^agreed dude. I was just playing sorry.

Whatever I say in my maintenance thread, the VA36 isn't really easy to work on and between iterations there are long periods of head-scratching and puzzling weirdness. There are quite a few pitfalls if you're looking to get started with that gun as your tech platform, especially if you buy the cheaper version which has a much much much older (6mm) version of the JG V3 gearbox. If you want to base your builds on JG G36s, you are going to have to buy one that has the newer 8mm gearbox.

The 6mm gearbox has a lot of little issues that aren't worthy "lessons", off the top of my head:

- The motor cage is a bendy metal, causing a lot of proplems
- Non-stock gears tend to bind (causing cycling seizures), this is an issue I haven't figured out yet completely
- The interior of the gearbox shell needs to be filed down in order for any aftermarket bushings to work
- The bushing holes are too loose for anything except stock nylon bushings

Aside from that, it's really hard to find parts. They exist, but where you might find hundreds of options for a V2 / M4, you will often only find one option for a G36.. And often it is something that might not be entirely compatible with anything else (I'm not touching any of the SRC parts for this reason).

If you're looking for an excuse to buy a G36, just go buy one of those newer JG ones with the 8mm gearbox. If you're looking to learn tech work.. start with something requiring fewer hacks.

ok thanks for your help looks like i'm getting a vfc gearbox shell and practising on that, i'll make it a CQC drop in GB for my scar. everyone thanks for your help if you have anymore suggestions feel free to post.

FYI VFC SCARs use proprietary V2 gearboxes due to the way the the folding stock works. In order to have a drop in gearbox it MUST be another VFC SCAR-L gearbox. Those clone Echo1/Dboys SCAR-H mechboxes MAY work too but I'm not 100% sure if the VFC based SCAR-H/L uses the same mechbox shell. If you can find a place that sells full VFC gearboxes let us know b/c I find VFC parts very hard to find.

As for working on JG G36s, my very first aeg I've ever worked on was a JG G36C. I upgraded the inner barrel and replaced the nylon bushings with Element metal ones and had no issues fitting them in. It must have been an issue with your gearbox MacieKa. As for the non stock gears binding, that appears to be a common issue with many Chinese mechboxes. It's another reason to avoid them if you're serious about your performance upgrades. The only real issue I had with it was that the spring was attached to the piston so you can't replace the piston w/o changing the spring. That and it was a horrendous pain to get the trigger back in place w/o it popping out. Other than that, the JG G36C still works great to this day 2 years later. I've moved on to much better AEGs but working on the G36 gave me some very useful experience that helped boost my confidence up. Personally, I think the SCAR is not a great aeg to start if you're planning on just building a drop in gearbox due to the proprietary shell, hop-up, and self shimming gears since you'll never learn about shimming with VFC guns.

well for the gearbox i was just going to buy this and take it apart repeatedly untill i get the basics of it.
http://airsoftgear.ca/index.php?main...roducts_id=901

Try UN Company and WGC for VFC parts. I haven't seen a complete box there but they do have shells and lots of the other little odd parts.

Also VFC responds really well to email when you need something that's not listed.

%100 true anytime i've emailed they i have a response in 12 hours or less their costumer service is amazing.
edit: also if you do want a complete box i posted a link to a Canadian retailer that has them for $121.

Yeah, entirely possible. The bushing hole for my sector gear is an "outie" as opposed to an "innie", i.e. the outer perimeter of the bushing hole rises up above the surface of the rest of the gearbox shell. I couldn't put any gears other than the stock ones in without the sector being completely unable to move. I had to sand the hole down. In addition, once I got bushings in, they were actually a little bit loose in the holes.

From what I understand, the JG V3 gearboxes undergo regular revisions.. The 8mm ones seem to be popular and are probably quite good. Examples on the market would include the new RIS version of the G36 sold by Velocity Arms, and Echo1's MTC1 and MTC2. One of the SOB variants as well.

I still haven't quite figured this one out yet. It's kinda weird. Put GB back together, pull trigger, nothin. Shake it around a bit, works fine for a while. Put it down and come back a few minutes later, dead. I'm tempted to just get a drop-in V3 but the one I really want (Lonex) is kinda pricey.

http://www.shootercbgear.com/product...e5oucbf9u16uk4

I do hear these are some of the best drop-in internals you can find anywhere though.

I unscrewed the piston head, at which point you can snake the spring out. It's a normal spring but the very end of the spring wire has a little corner bit to it. I cut it off using some giant wire cutters I happen to have (as you might imagine, these come in handy in downtown Toronto ...). This spring is now residing in my trusty Diablo:

Diablo Mechbox Update 7.4V LiPo - YouTube

Works great! :) And the piston from the JG works fine on its own as well, I found the o-ring from it to be quite decent.

The first time I tried putting back the trigger I thought I was going to throw the thing out the window (I live in a highrise...). After a ton of practice, I'm happy to report that it DOES get easier with practice and I'm now a pro at it (so this shouldn't deter the gearbox newbie).

I agree with the above, plus with a lot of VFC stuff you're not going to be as likely to want to upgrade / tinker with it since it's more expensive and in many cases it already kind of rocks out of the box (their VFC is a good example of this). If you're going with a V2, go the M4 route. A world will open up!

This is very true. No other V2 AEG will give you as much control over the internal and external customization as a AR15 variant. Which sorta sucks if you hate M4s and want to be an individual. V2 parts are also the easiest to source replacements for in the airsoft world. Nothing's stopping you from learning about mechboxes using another platform though. I initially started tinkering with V3s before moving onto V6s (By far the easiest of the common gearboxes to work on), and then finally working on V2s. Gaining hands on experience with a gearbox regardless of the version will give you valuable skills and insight that's applicable to any sort of gundoc work.

Gonna miss the old avatar ;)

She'll be back someday Mac, someday. ;)

Start working on the ICS M4. It is much easier.

nope like i said in my first post it's a nice gun, and i don't want my inexperienced hands anywhere near the gearbox.

If it ain't broke don't fix it is a good rule to live by.

also this. :)

First gearbox I learned on was my g&g m4. Pistonhead broke. Tore it apart & fixed it up. Been into it a few more times since. install ascu, fix broken wire to motor & last time was to put an m90 into it to get me to 350fps.

If it hasn't been said already, if you want an easy gun to work on. Get a p90. End of story.

hi need help some new to the sport .i have a echo1 scar-l its about 386fps with the stock spring whats the best way to get it to around 350fps can any one help

Change the spring.

what kind m90 ???? changed to m90 got less 300 then put 120 got 398 what next m110 will it put me maybe 360 what do you say

90 (330-350fps) 100(350-370fps)

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.

Can anyone tell me why he just posted my sig and thats it. also i think i'm just going to buy a JG v3 and work on that so i don't blow my budget on a crap gun.

i put m90 (70fps) had air leak (cylinder head & air nozzle ) fixed it put m120 shots 398 fps .will a m110 get me to 360fps what do you think????:banghead:

I have an M120 in my SL8 and its shooting 425.

The M90 was giving you 90fps because something else went wrong when you re-assembled it. When you put in the M120, you probably did it "correctly" and thus got the 120m/s it advertises.

My advice is give the M90 another go and try to test the compression components as you reassemble the gun this time. Good luck.

know looking to see if i put modify sp110 spring will it get me to 360fps . fixed it put s100 modify spring got 354-360spf

If your gun is tuned properly a modify SP110 will probably put it around 380-390

I have a modify SP110+ in my M4 and I got 415FPS....

What spring would people suggest for the 380-390 range? I used to use Prometheus M120 but they seem to be non-existent now.