Negative Tradeback Ratings, Tire Kickers, Flakers, and YOU!
 

There has been an alarming increase in the MISUSE of the Trader Feedback system. In particular, there are a good number of users who feel that it's okay to leave a negative feedback for a deal that NEVER ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE.

This includes leaving negative feedback against users who ask about a product but don't commit to buying it, and moreso, against users who say they want the item but don't follow through (tire kicker syndrome.)

For the sellers who feel slighted by this: GET OVER IT. Anybody who's done any appreciable amount of business on the internet or in real life, knows that UNTIL THE CASH IS IN YOUR HAND, *NOTHING* IS COMMITTED NOR SET IN STONE! Anybody who works retail or any service for that matter, knows this. It should be no different here!

In this "ebay-era", I understand the frustration on the seller's part. On ebay, if you commit to placing a bid on an item - YOU ARE COMMITTED TO BUYING IT. And if you don't pay up, YOU WILL DESERVE THAT NEGATIVE RATING THAT WILL BE SENT TO YOU. However, this is ASC, NOT ebay! We don't charge you listing fees, so you're not out cash. Don't take it so hard. Don't cry. Don't even get stressed over it. In fact, don't even take off the listing or bother putting "SPF" on your item UNTIL YOU HAVE CASH IN HAND. Payment, is the biggest commitment.



COURTESY
Not to be a complete a-hole pr!ck about online sales, there is also some courtesy involved on BOTH parties.

To the seller:
It is courteous to allow a grace period for the buyers to send funds to the seller. It's up to you to determine for yourself and for the buyer, what an "appropriate" grace period is. MAKE THIS CLEAR, UP FRONT. If other buyers approach the seller during this grace period, it is additional courtesy to let them know: "hey, I have another buyer who just committed to buying the item, and I've given him 1 business day to get in to the bank so he can direct deposit me. If he can't do it, then you're next in line."


To the buyer:
Understand, that the seller is depending on YOU to make payment in a timely manner. He is holding that item for you for a set grace period, because YOU made a commitment to buy it, and YOU ARE ACCOUNTABLE, as a grown up adult, to follow through with this commitment. When you fail to follow through on this commitment, you cause the seller to lose out on potential sales that he could have made, but ended up losing because you were a deadbeat. Walking away with an "oh well, not my loss" attitude is selfish. If you need to wait for some funds to clear so that you will have the cash to pay the seller, TELL HIM UP FRONT. Tell him "I really want that item you're selling, but I don't get paid till next Friday. Is it cool if I pay then?" If the seller does not agree - no problem. He has no obligation to. But if you pass the grace period, expect the seller to move on. If the seller throws a few choice words at you as well, guess what? You deserved it and asked for it. So take it with grace.

Understand why the frustration is there, and please, for the love of cute little kittens, save yourself some trouble and the grief of sellers by NOT saying you want the item until you have the cash ready to pay, and have thoroughly thought through your financial situation. I can't even count the number of flaked sales "commitments" I've had due to broken down car repairs, kids college fund, family funerals, whatever. You shouldn't be burning every last cent you have on airsoft anyways, but you're all adults. I'm not going to tell you what to do with your money. Just realize the consequences of flaking.


If I dished out a negative feedback for every person who's said they wanted something from me but never followed through, I would have issued THOUSANDS of negative feedbacks by now.


MOVING FORWARD

Sellers: STOP leaving negative feedback for flakers. It's not appropriate, as a transaction never actually took place. I'm not going to make a hard rule about this yet, because I expect everyone trading on this forum to be grown up, accountable, and responsible adults (I roll my eyes as I say this.) I don't want to see the current increase continue in growth. If after posting this, there is a continued growth of such abuse of the system, I WILL create a hard rule about this, which effectively makes the misuse of the trader feedback system in such regard, to be an infractable offense that could lead to a temporary ban from the forums.

Buyers: STOP committing to buy something if you have no intention to follow through, or haven't fully thought out your financial situation. If you received a negative feedback, then stop making commitments you can't follow through on. You bone the seller in the process and you raise his hopes for nothing.


RETALIATORY FEEDBACK

As a reminder, there IS a hard rule against leaving retaliatory feedback, which WILL net you an infraction that could lead to a temporary system ban. It can also result in you LOSING YOUR AGE VERIFICATION STATUS. Retaliatory feedback is described as follows:
- You are the seller
- Your buyer is unsatisfied with the item you sold him, you failed to meet the requirement of satisfaction to the description of the transaction, and as a result, the buyer issued you a negative feedback. Despite the buyer paying you IN FULL, and ON TIME (thus, fully meeting the prescribed outline of his end of the deal), you left him a negative feedback in retaliation for the one you sent to him.

I don't care if you thought the buyer was annoying, or a pain in the ass after the transaction. Leaving him a negative rating because he gave you one, IS RETALIATORY. This is an abuse of the rating system, and will gain you an infraction.



The need for me to even have to post this notice gives me a headache...

I like this.

Should be stickied and made mandatory to read before selling/buying anything off the classified/retailers here.

Good post

I did buy an EO Tech of a seller and it wouldnt let me give feedback at all.

Actually, I cant reply to most posts. . .

Where are you trying to give feedback? I have a feeling you're trying to do the wrong thing, because NOBODY can reply to posts in the classifieds except for the original poster of the thread. ... and the admins. I'm assuming you are neither.

Great post; well said.

Not to diverge off the OP too much...but, I'd like to mention a courtesy issue of leaving feedback once a sale is completed... I've had 3 sales where I did not receive feedback... Not a big deal, but whilst we are on the topic of courtesy I'd thought I'd put it out there....

Admins should edit-out the "FLAKERS WILL RECEIVE NEGATIVE FEEDBACK" part on some ppl's ads

I dont know about you, but when I read that, I usually take my money and go somewhere else....

Why should we? Shouldn't the sellers do that themselves? As much as we are considered the "sanitation engineers" of ASC, I'd hoped that AS A COMMUNITY, you'd pitch in your own part of the work as well.

Glad to see the change of mind on this one. Though I have never had it happen to me I suggested this years ago and was told flat out no and that sellers could do it.

On one hand, I can see the frustration of the seller, and in that regard, I would say the buyer deserved the negative feedback if the seller says outright that flakers will receive a negative feedback.

On the other hand, the base concept of the trader feedback system is being misused, because technically, no trade has gone through at all. No money exchanged hands, no product exchanged hands. Thus, nothing was traded.

Ultimately, my 15+ years of online trading has taught me one thing: Trust no one (not even team mates - they're the first ones to delay paying, because they think things are cool), and to always cover your ass. Money in hand or nothing is committed, cash up front for orders you aren't willing to hold as inventory, and "yes, for sure" is never absolute. It's a rather jaded view, but it serves to cover my butt every single day, even to this day.

Thanks for posting this, I've always been wary of receiving negative feedback because of inquiries I've made might be thought off as commitments to buy. So I've always made it very clear in the PM that this is a information PM only and that I am not committing to buy the product.

Here's another perfect example of a situation that came in, on why a notice like this had to be made:

A potential buyer was talking to a seller about an item. NO COMMITMENT was made on the buyer's part to purchase the item. The buyer asked a few questions about the item, but received no answers to the questions.

Instead, the seller sends the buyer his phone number, and kept insisting that the buyer calls so they could talk. No reply to the original questions were received, except for the insistence to call. Not wanting to bother with the phone (or whatever his reason was, who cares), the buyer never called.

A few days later, the seller left a neutral feedback to complain about the buyer asking questions, and when no call was ever received he was frustrated. He felt he was entitled to a gentle let down that the buyer was no longer interested.



That isn't appropriate.

My advice to the seller, was the same I'm telling you guys. It's quite simple: "deal with it." The world doesn't owe you squat. They don't owe you apologies or excuses. Yes, they are a common societal courtesy, but the sooner any of you stop acting like a victim, the sooner you'll stop being a victim or feeling like you're the victim of some sort of situation.

Some say I sound angry. I'm not. I'm just a realist. I'm not worked up over this - I'm just imparting knowledge on you guys to actively protect yourselves as sellers so that you never feel slighted, or in some way in a situation where you feel you have to leave a negative rating against a lost buyer.

The problem is people are using the trader rating system as a "reputation system".

The system as I understand it is to rate how well the TRANSACTION went. I see your point if there was no transaction, then there should be no feedback.

What people (and I myself I must admit) are doing is using the system to identify flakers.

I think such a system should be in place, but it would have to be moderated and I understand that is allot to ask considering the existing load MODS have to deal with.

I think there should be a way to track if someone wastes your time, and warn off other from a person who jerks chains.

I had a fellow drag payment out for a week then tell me he found a better deal. I was a nice guy, and SPF'd the sale. I gave him negative feedback and a full explanation why, and I still have all the PMs.

Looks like I won't be being a nice guy anymore.

Its sad but this should be a sticky, man up people treat others in the classifieds as you wish to be treated

Nothing has really changed, it's been like this for quite a while.

+1 to that. Anyone who posts FLAKERS WILL RECEIVE NEGATIVE FEEDBACK is not worth my time or attention dealing with.

Leaving a negative trade rating for flaking is misrepresenting the person receiving the feedback. Something as serious as scamming or failing to deliver, are equal to the one same negative trade rating point as flaking. I'd much rather deal with a flaker than a scammer, negative trade rating should be for serious, crime-worthy infractions only.

It's a 180 deg change. Like I said I was told when I suggested this that sellers could leave feedback for what ever reason even if no trade/deal ever happened or was agreed on.

I'm still basing this off an old precedence set by HonestJohn back when he'd owned the forum and first enacted the rating system. If something's changed since then, I'm not aware of it. But at the time, HoJo said that unless a TRADE actually took place, then there was nothing to rate. It made sense to me.

I certainly will not go against the wishes of the admins of this site, but I do have a bit of a different opinion regarding this issue.

Here is an example:

A person is selling an item. Another member contacts him by PM and asks several questions. Eventually a price is agreed upon and the buyer says he will purchase the item for the agreed upon price. Now the buyer flakes.

Illusion's position is that there never was a transaction, so there can be no feedback on a transaction that does not exist. I see his point that hundreds or even thousands of times this happens with online buyers. My point is that a deal has taken place. The buyer committed to buy, but did not follow through with his responsibilities. To me,this warrants negative feedback.

An example where negative feedback is not appropriate is for lowballers. If I am selling an item for $100 and someone offers me $15, then I can ignore it or even tell the offerer "no". This is not a reason to apply negative feedback.

That is what I thought when I asked about it after HoJo left. I was surprised but dropped it. Just glad it's posted up now thank you.

Technically there has been no deal so far. No money has changed hands. I consider everything up until money is exchanged just offers and counter offers. But I do see your point. Its aggravating when you thing your item is going to a new home and then suddenly the seller bails on you. It helps to be pessimistic when selling sometimes :(

this is where you get into verbal or written contract law. has a payment occurred? maybe not.
but saying OK i will buy this item for that price. is a written contract, and at that point i would say a deal has been made.
I'm honestly not sure where i sit on this. i agree that some people have gotten unjust negative feedbacks, but i think once someone commits to buy a deal has been made.
this can also work both ways, if a seller agrees to sell you an item, they can not change their mind.

edit: not wanting to be argumentative, or imply the rules are wrong, just giving my opinion.

Sorry I just finished a contract law course... Technically its not a contract unless money is exchanged. Other wise anything leading up to the contract is call "puffs" or pre contractual statements. And since there is no contract technically there are no obligations on either party. How does this apply to our rep system? Well it applies because its basically your reputation on the line when you screw someone over by flaking. Unfortunately it seems our rep system is the only method of reprisal for such behavior.

How's this: what if flaker feedback is restricted ONLY to a neutral rating? It does not impact the sellers score, as a trade never took place, but it can alert other sellers to behaviour patterns.

Or for fun, get rid of the PMs and go back to when you could reply in the classifieds. Then the whole exchange would be in the clear for all to see including flakes.

Of course that would mean the self appointed moderators of good taste and fair pricing would swoop in on those threads again too.

When I buy or sell something I do hit the view all posts just to see what kind of person I've got on the line on top of the trader rating.

Ive feel that the neutral rating is actually a fair compromis, it allows people to report flakers without affecting score. Hmm maybe an ammendment to the rules could be in the works.

Still its pretty sad that our members feel its okay to act dickish to eachother. Me thinks perhaps we can make the work "flaker" highlighted in red every time it comes up on the forum.

Where's ma stuffs Illusion? I'll give you a negative feedback right now! :P

On the serious note, I concur 100%.

Feedback is left because a "deal" went good or bad, not because your upset. Stick to your guns while selling, or buying. And be firm and fair all the time. And there is nothing wrong with asking the seller questions about the product. If you don't want to politely answer the questions, then don't. I'll bet they'll buy elsewhere though.

I used to have a problem with people flaking out on deals, which is a piss off, especially if I had other interested people whom I turned down because I was waiting on someone and then are no longer interested when I contact them again.

Now my rule is, first one pays get's it. I don't hold anything for anybody unless you want to pay a non-refundable deposit. You flake out, you lose your deposit. Simple as that. Since then, have not had a problem.

I agree 100%
I think this is how it should work out...
Neutral:
-Promised to buy and ask for hold which back out or never reply back after a weeks
-Item receive with damage not mentioned or item missing (small stuff worth less than 5% of the transaction)
-Item receive with damage exceed 10% of transaction and it took over 2 weeks to have a response and a fix (not compromise)
Negative:
-Item was never shipped
-Item was missing item or damage value over 10% of transaction
-Item receive damage with value less than 10% but never reply back when condition is issued.

Bang!!! right there dude, that should be the new policy!


You see the problem is generated by the seller not the buyer. The seller extends a trust If it is not honoured, the seller is direspected and then retrobution needs to be metered out.
Things should be for sale till they are paid for. Period. If you agree to hold something its on you and your own fault. Not the person you extended the courtesy too. Bad manners is not bad Business.

SPF should be kicked.and like the Ba*n*a/n7a rule MODs can troll for SPF and hand out Infractions.

How about seller flaked?
 

I had an old case in which seller agreed to sell the item and gave me his payment details. I almost paid but needed a little more details and got no answer. Later I found out the seller scam a few other members. So I left a negative trading rate. The seller then left me a negative one as retaliation.

I spoke to ASC staff and they said they could not erase my negative trading rate. Sounds very unfair and contradictory to what is being discussed here.

What is more interesting is that ASC staff asked me if I could withdraw my negative rating from that seller as he was regretted for what he did. I refused as I believe I did nothing wrong.

yeah, but you already agreed to buy the item, you should have asked all your questions before agreeing to purchase no?

You didnt read ronald's post. He said the seller didnt answer his questions and he was scamming other members.

How about this for a rule.

1. Both the buyer and the seller assume the responsibilities to fully inform themselves of the item(s) and condition(s) before they commit to a deal.

1.1 Deal must contain the following information
- full names, contact information
- descriptive detail of item(s)...to the satisfaction of both the buyer and seller
- payment amount, timing, method and any other conditions...to the satisfaction of both the buyer and seller
- shipping conditions (priority class, signage, insurance, etc..) and specific timing
- any other conditions, provisos...to the satisfaction of both the buyer and seller

2. Once the deal is positively confirmed (i.e. both buyer and seller acknowledge the terms of the deal in writing)...both are bound to complete said deal. Both parties must retain written information related to the deal until is it completed (see 3.1)

3. Once the item(s) is received...the buyer must acknowledge that he/she is satisfied with the item(s) within 7 days of receiving the item(s)...or else state any perceived deficiencies within those 7 days. The buyer must signify with, "Items received as described...I am fully satisfied that this deal is done"

3.1. If there is no acknowledgement (either way) from the buyer to the seller within 7 days...then the seller has the right to assume that the deal/transaction is complete and final. They are absolved of any further ties/responsibilities re. the deal.

3.2. If the buyer puts forth issues/grievances with the item(s) within 7 days...the seller must respond with a proposed course of action within 3 days. Correspondance will continue, either party having a maximum of 3 days to respond...until a course of resolution is agreed upon. All correspondance must be kept.

3.2.1. At any time, either party can state that they are putting the grievance/issue to the moderators. They must submit all documentation of the deal and communications. The moderators will then act as an arbitrator and come to a decision within 7 days of the request being submitted. Both parties are then bound to the arbitration decision...and any terms/timing it may contain. The moderator/admin will have final determination re. disciplanary action.

4. Failure to comply with the above will result in the suspension of the AV status of both the buyer and sellers for a mandatory period of 6 months. Additional disciplinary conditions may include some or all of the following
- the removal of all of the parties buy/sell items
- revoking AV status for a longer duration
- temporary/permanent ban from ASC

* the penalties are severe enough to strongly encourage both parties to seek and abide by an amicable deal...to quickly come to an agreed resolution in 3.2 and to avoid binding arbitration described in 3.2.1



...or you could expect people to smarten the f*ck up in the first place...whichever is easier. :)

That was with the old forum software, where we actually COULD NOT easily remove the trader feedback. The only person who could do it were the top admins who had the access and knowledge to root around in the back end... and they're not around much these days.

Thus, it was easier to tell the users to change their ratings themselves, which was always possible.

With the new system, if you have a problem like yours, tell us now and we can fix it. Unlike the old system, users CAN NOT change a feedback they'd submitted once they clicked "SEND", but now the forum staff have this power.

Yay. Technology. It's so not fair. Wah waaaah.

I always tought that a general "form" should be used when selling stuff on asc (mostly for guns!). Something like this:

Brand/Model: TM G36C
Upgrades (Yes, list them / no): Modify cylinder, prometheus Speed gears, etc...
Accessories included? (yes, list them /no): Yes, The eotech shown on pictures
Price: XXX CAN
Shipping method: Incuded in price/To buyer/Paid half & half etc...
Payments accepted: EMT, CASH, PAYPAL (+4%/no fees/ etc...), Direct Deposit

Might be a good idea to generalize (and optimize) sell thread

Just my 2 cents

I like this. It would make the staff member's jobs around here a lot easier.

Sometimes, it's like managing a school yard.

All questions about the item asked. And both parties agreed the transaction.

Just some seller's payment detail was missing (I forgot what exactly it was, but it was just for my information and would not hinder the payment process).

So true. Money == deal completed.

Simple formula kids.

I never knew this is becoming an issue illusion has to personally step in. Yikes.

Realistically, all relative info should be posted on the sales thread.

Things like:
-age and usage
-number of owners
-upgrades and parts
-painted or not
-scratches and damage
-price or specific trades
-pictures (if possible)
-make and model

If you don't post that info plus anything else relevant, the seller will make his own life difficult. It really limits the amount of questions he'll get as well.

Read trader ratings, and get all questions out in your first PM. Simple.

Well said. If a seller cant even bother to put the most basic information how can they expect to sell. Sad thing is that even when I browse the classifieds I still see pathetic sales threads with less text than a fortune cookie.

Hello sellers
Look at your ad
Now back to mine
Now back to yours
Now back to mine
Sadly your ad is not as good as mine
But if you dont half ass you ad and gave a damn your ad could look like mine
Look down where are you?
Your at the post office with your package
Whats in your hand?
Back at me
Its a positive trader rating for feed back from that site you love
Look again
The tickets are now bacon
Anything is possible when you type more than 1 sentence in an ad
Im on a soapbox

Alexander Umil (a current ASC member), posted on www.craigslist.ca a magpul ubr stock, after a series of questions and emails about the stock he said and I quote "It's brand new man... Nothing is missing at all... so I bought it, when I received it the screws were the wrong size (don't fit), a few of the screw holes appear to have been forced (trying to make the screws fit I guess) the stock tube has paint chips (clearly been used) and the tab that fits into the AR body (second hole where the wires usually come out of on a rear wired AR have some obvious wear).

I paid $70 for it but I don't want to lose out if I ship it back, since I clearly didn't get what I paid for, I asked for $85.00 to cover my initial cost and the shipping return fee to him.

he's refused, help me out here community.

He left you feedback saying you asked for 95. Did someone make a typo somewhere?

Edit: he wrote 95 on yours. And you wrote 85 on his. Either its a typo or someone is trying to exaggerate the facts. Maybe you two can split shipping cost or something. Like 77 refund.

I did buy an EO Tech of a seller and it wouldnt let me give feedback at all.

Hey quick questions for you guys. Is it okay to report a bad feedback rating if you see it on someone else's trader page?

For instance I was checking someones trader rating and saw they gave retaliatory feedback simply because they received a negative.

Does it meet the above definition of a retaliatory feedback?

If uncertain, maybe submit to the admins both the feedback sections (negative & retaliatory) and let them make the determination.

Yes it meets the conditions. The seller gave a buyer a neg simply because he didn't contact him (the seller) about problems with a gun.

I dont know it its cool for me to report it because I was not involved with the deal. I just noticed someone get a neg in retaliation for leaving negative feedback.

Understood.

It's not our duty to police other's actions. Any action would have to be initiated by buyer. If the buyer doesn't want to address it, that's his/her decision. There is also the possibility that action IS being taken, but occurring via PMs.

I would leave it be.

Go ahead and report it. Retaliatory feedback skews the system -- not everyone will read the comments in depth and realize its retaliatory, just the rating.

Plus I like banning people. And it's a lot easier justifying it when they do stuff like leave retaliatory feedback. :P

Quick Question guys.

Should a trader rating be given for Gun Doctors and the service provided? Techinically, there is a transaction there, no? ie. parts and stuff for cash?

I feel that if money changed hands in exchange for a good or service, it should warrant a feedback rating. Because technically you did exchange consideration. Does it matter if its for parts? Well maybe, but if money is given, I would consider it a deal.

Fixing more guns eh luder?

Of course someone with much more say than I do should be the final word. Thats just my two cents.

You can leave feedback for Gun Doctoring but be sure to clearly state it in the feedback: someone could be a crappy gun doc but still an honest and trustworthy seller in terms of goods.

I gave a neutral rating today for a flaker. This is the first time I have given a rating lower than a positive. Which speaks volumes for the unprofessionalism of this guy.

This is the second time the user has flaked on me.

In both cases, I have the guy my info so payment can be made. Each time he just flaked on me by ceasing communications. Pretty lame if you ask me.

I understand people flake all the time, and things happen. I understand, but what I do not understand is how hard is it to say "sorry things changed"?

Anyways I left a neutral so other sellers can be aware of this guys crap.

UPDATE: After discussing with the person, I have decided to give the guy benefit of the doubt and take his side of the story at face value.
So I have requested the deletion of my rating.

Nice

I do not understand at all those people who leave negative reviews because of something that did not suit them or was too expensive for their wallet. It's like going to an expensive restaurant and putting a unit on it because you can't afford to dine there.