How old should you really be?
 

Good day.
I'm somewhat new to this Forum so please bare with me as I try to clarify what I have to say.

I'm from the Comox Valley some of you may know where this is well in the last 6 months there has been a new airsoft group (Comox Valley Airsoft) we have reached almost 80 members and growing almost every day but as the group gets larger the more younger they get which is fine for some but I'm not too big of a fan spending hundreds of dollars and shooting little 10 year old. So a buddy and I started our own field which is really just a 5ac piece of land but it works so we just simply put it as a CQB(ish). We made it a 15+ field mostly for safety reasons and some times people don't want 10 year old's running around, well our "leader" said it be fine but now he thinks it should be fare for all ages and if I don't change this he'll stop using my field. I'm stuck here, my friend and myself have put hours of work into the field and feel this is too harsh for such a simple thing.

We also don't allow snipers but he thinks I should aloud snipers, but the problem is the field is just not open enough and is too small to be used for sniping and I worried that if someone would get hurt in any form or way I would come down to fault.

Sorry for any incorrect spelling a head of time.

:banghead:

My two cents is that the leader is being a bit aggressive. After all, it's your field, and if he doesn't like your rules, he can go play elsewhere.

Even so, I think you should keep your options open, especially to younger people. Yes, 10 year olds may be pushing the bar a bit, but for slightly older adolescents, maybe you could help mentor them. Initiate a boot camp or something similar so that they can learn in a controlled, safe environment where they can demonstrate their abilities and maturity before moving on to 'free play' with the big boys. :P

I'm sure that even if you didn't allow younger people, others would still come. For example, the age limit here in Calgary is 16+, with occasional 13+ 'noob games' where the less experienced can come and learn the game respectfully.

Also, criticize me if you may, but I believe 5 acres of field is plenty enough for Snipers. Or have I misinterpreted your information?

Anyway, just my opinion on this. Still your overall decision. :)

I know this is going to sound harsh, but, how old are you?

The next point I would like to make, is: 10 year olds? Are you fucking kidding me? I realize this is the Newbie Tank, but, seriously? Are their parents playing? Who brings them? Who pays for their stuff? So many questions...

Shit, I'm going to bed. Too much weird here.

I was just voicing an opinion. No need to get jacked up. :P

I'm 16, so no AV for me, but I believe I have a somewhat firm grasp of what I'm talking about.

I also believe '10-year olds' may be a bit of an exaggeration.

JLiang, that wasn't aimed at you, bucko.

Thank you for that bit of info. I'm not too sure on the size of the field I'm not very good at guessing, the field in about 80% trees and brush and the rest just tall grass.

The youngest we have ever had at a game was 8... Their parents do not play at games and most times their parents just drop them off and drive away without a word, and most cases their parents pay for most if not all of their gear and guns. I'm 17* Almost 18.

Oh.

Well, now you know how old I am! XD

I hoe you didn't take offense to that. Wasn't meant to be aggressive or anything.


And 8? I agree, that's excessive. Waaay too excessive.

so basically, you are being a baby sitter for these kids. if one of them should get injured, who ever is running the event and the property owner would be legally responsible for everything.

We do have them sign waivers but to what legal power they hold I'm not to sure of.

Do you have the kids sign the waivers, or the guardians?

I gotta say, this all sounds like a mess waiting to happen. 8 is 100% way too young. And if you're not aware of "what legal power they hold", and that's your only protection, I would highly recommend you stop allowing people on your field immediately, until you're more familiar with what consequences could rain down on you.

I have a feeling you're going to get some harsh, but straight forward replies in here, from very knowledgeable people, so I'd suggest you listen to them closely.

On a side note, one of the benefits of having older players that are often more mature, is that if you allow them to have 450FPS sniper rifles, they'll know better than to use it as a CQB weapon. Don't give a shot you wouldn't take.

The YOUNGEST i have ever seen allowed onto a field was 14 and that was a fathers son, part owner of a private field, and only as a photographer/medic while the father was playing, he's now 16 which is the youngest most public paintball fields allow with a consent form/waiver.

who wrote up your waivers? what insurance do you have?
honestly I wouldn't allow anyone under 14 to play ever without an adult present.
this can get ugly very quickly.
its to early for this.

I agree. I feel that our group "leader" needs a smack on the head and told airsoft isn't meant to be fare but he is too stubborn to listen and keeps going on like nothing will happen. I fear the worse if something happens and the shock waves are felt throughout the Canadian airsoft community.

So the parents drop off their kids at Airsoft Day Care, and leave?

WOW

You guys are in for a liability NIGHTMARE. If one of those kids gets hurt, even a pricked finger. You could be held responsible and liable for all injuries to that young person.

Essentially by allowing these children to be dropped off, regardless of what waiver has been signed. You are assuming responsibility over those young persons.

My advice would be to stop that practice straight away. If the parents are not on the field, then the child cannot play.

You may have been running on luck and borrowed time for now. But the day will come, when something happens.

Unless the parents are on the field and quite LITERALLY right beside them. I would not even let them enter the field, let alone hold a gun. If your leader is going to such a d**k about it, then let him find somewhere else to play. You're the one that gets shit on if one of the kids get hurt and you're the one that will get sued. He has absolutely NO say in this.

And even if he does decide to go somewhere else and nobody comes to your field, the field isn't your main source of income nor is it a necessity in your life. Granted it would be a shame to waste all that time into developing a field, all to have some arrogant idiot ruin it for your entire airsoft community.

And waivers aren't very reliable too, unless you're a lawyer and know exactly what to write and what to look for. There are just way too many loopholes that can be used to make you lose in court.

I guarantee you that if you make a decent field, you will have members from other larger clubs looking to come play, but if we're hearing that your field caters to 8 year olds (wtf dude) then I would bet you that we will stay on our part of the island.

I have a little street cred when it comes to airsoft on this island, so if you want any help or particular advice or want to know how clubs down here run, then feel free to PM me.

get yourself a waver made, to cover your ass legaly anyone under the age of 18 must have it signed by a parent or guardian, if not they cant play. I have been to games where they alow 16 year olds to play, and they acted mature enough that i didnt even realise they were under 18, but i have also seen it the otherway.

personaly i wouldnt go to a game with anyone under 16

Group leader? What does that mean? That he makes decisions for you on your field? Nonsense.

I don't think I believe in "group leader" as in "of an airsoft community". Group leader "in-game", yes, there are squad leaders, commanding officers. But that's where it should stop.

If your community really calls for a "leader", and from what I read here, the fact that you're expressing concerns about security and all that makes me think you'd make a better "leader" than him.

Seriously, a kid under 14 (I'm being politicaly correct here) should never handle a rifle, pistol of any kind without direct supervision of his parents. And I'm thinking handling that rifle and possibily shooting targets, not people. Let alone dropping them alone to shoot and get shot at. That's my opinion about this, but one that is common sense I think.

Your field, your rules. Just make sure you don't make stupid decisions, but that looks covered by the fact you came here asking for advices. Props tonyou on that

Field owners/operators trumph "group leaders", every time and every day, full stop.

Field owners/operators run the field, set things up, set the rules, and take on the risk of operations. "Group leaders" organize players, nothing more.

If your "Group leader" wants all-ages - then tell him to have at it - on his own field. Not yours.

Set some standards, and your field standards and player base will improve. Making it an all age shit-show, and it will just dilute the player base to the point where the quality players get fed up and go else where, while you are left with a giant pile of aggravation to deal with.

You are there to have fun, as well as organize the field - you aren't having fun if you end up running an airsoft day-camp.

It's time to stage a Coup on your "group leader", and tell him to get stuffed.

That would make a nice scenario; do that in one of your game, tell him he needs to defend himself against a coup, if you win, he gets to fall as your community's leader :D lol

Whomever owns the land upon which you play (I'm assuming your parents?), have to understand the legal ramifications.

Most airsoft fields are strictly eighteen plus; with a few allowing sixteen and seventeen, as long as parents or legal guardians are present. These fields are run by adults and have proper insurance and proper waivers. Otherwise there is no protection from a lawsuit. Most of these fields have also been scoured by the owners for certain hazards and hopefully proper controls have been put in place.

I can't tell you what to do, but here's some advice. I'm assuming your going to play airsoft anyways so you may as well even the playing field for yourself. Don't allow kids to play, skill and attitude are not the important factors at this level. Play with people no less than two years younger than your oldest player. That way you can keep it as a "group of friends playing airsoft in my backyard". This isn't necessarily a legal protection, but keeps the general responsibility fairly even between you. Let your land owners know to look into the legal side of things; as well as every parent of a youth playing Airsoft with you. If any of your members turn eighteen, get them to a proper team, you don't need adults shooting at kids.

Make the following gear mandatory; sealed goggles that are CSA, ANSI, or ballistic rated (no exceptions), a neck or throat protector, a mesh or paintball style mask, and a helmet.

It's also important that you get access to a proper chronograph such as Madbull, or X-cortex. You "must" know the FPS of "every gun" before it gets used. Set up hard decks for FPS, and allow no one to go over. Like 380 FPS for AR and 400 FPS for a sniper as an example. Always chrono with a proper 0.20g BB as heavier BBs lower the velocity, but can increase the joules (or energy). Any gas powered guns need to be chonographed with the BB weight they use as they don't react the same. So you'll need to a proper graph and equation that tell you for instance that a 0.20g BB traveling at 400 FPS has the power of 1.486 joules; so someone running a gas gun using 0.25g BBs has to shoot under 355 FPS to stay under the joule limit. I know it sounds expensive and complicated, but that's why airsoft is run by adults. You have to know though that no one playing on your field is going to take someones head off with a BB.

Hopefully you guys keep it safe and fun out there. Take up Janus on his offer, if you need help.


Team leaders set the basic direction and gameplay of the team. A team however is more than one person, that's why it's called a "team". So everyone should have concerns, opinions, and input. The landowner however has every right to set up boundaries, and safety rules.

I've played with a lot of underaged players locally, mostly 15-17. I don't have a problem with any of them. They play hard and well with good sportsmanship and good conduct. There is an agreement with field owners that someone is responsible for the minor in some aspect, a ride home, a person who can contact the parents (if not the field owner themselves) and the parents are never too far away.

We had a kid... I think 14 get a tooth shot out. All the adults were calling no duff, sky is falling, etc... kid's only response was "I just want to go respawn" Even his parents weren't all that concerned when they were called. They showed up, they asked him if he wanted to keep playing or not, he was on the fence and looked to their guidance on what he should do. I think they ended up just going to the dentist and that was that. We saw him on the field again a few weeks later.


I have to agree though <12 is probably a bit young to be unsupervised.

My parents do own the land that I run for airsoft, I talked to my parents this morning and they think I'm just getting over paranoid about nothing but from what I'm hearing here they should be worried. At my field I do have it a 15+ but like I said before it really isn't stopping our "group leader" from bringing 10 to 14 year olds. There has only been 1 game at my field so far, I may just pull away from the group and make my own group and have it a 16+ with proper waivers. I off for now but thank you for your information that everyone has provided so far.

In this case, it was lucky that 'cool' parents were involved in the aftermath of that injury. It could very easily have gone the other way, as has been seen in other activities and hobbies.

The "Suzie Soccer-mom" factor is the great unknown, and the most troublesome. Precious little Johnny gets injured, and all of a sudden everyone but the absentee parent is to blame for lax supervision that resulted in the injury. Threats get made, and a land-shark lawyer gets involved, and the potential is definitely there for people to start losing their shirts over it, or at least deal with a whole lot of aggravation and inconvenience before it's over.

The civil liability climate in Ontario has changed a bit in the past few years, so that plaintiff's can't simply say that they "didn't read that" when they signed a waiver, but where money and the potential of civil liability is involved, you better have legal representation built into your overhead costs, just in case. Ontario is chock-full of "Suzie Soccer-mom's", unfortunately.

I've seen kids that would make great airsoft players, and this argument has been had a thousand times on ASC. However important; maturity, sportsmanship, skill level, and attitude, are not deciding factors wether or not someone should be put in a position where they are firing projectiles at others, and having them shot back. Unless you're of legal age to take responsibilty for yourself, I really hope that the kids and their legal guardians understand all the dangers, hazards, and potential physical threats of the sport, the field they play on, the equipment, and the other players; otherwise, they have put their child needlessly at risk. Most parents I've met a clueless about these things when they sign the waiver. There are a few players I know who's kids play as well. I suppose it's fair to think that they'll understand the dangers. Oddly enough, most experienced players I know would not fathom allowing their kids to play until they are at least sixteen - eighteen. Weird eh?

The important thing is safety; not the legal protection of the airsoft site, or how much of it's cash flow comes from the clueless parents who bring their kids there.

In which case, as the land-owners, your parents are financially liable for any incidents arising out of the "sanctioned activity" taking place on the land. They do have a reason to worry, for their potential financial security. It sounds like you have more sense of the potential risk involved, than do your parents.

Thank you for coming here looking for help. Being open minded and responsible is a step in the right direction.

They may not think you are over paranoid when they get slapped with a lawsuit ...

when a parent "drops off" their kid on your property.. you and your parents are now responsible for the wellbeing of that minor. You invited them.. you permitted them on the land.. their parents have an expectation that they will be safe and sound while in your custody.

if Jr gets foggy goggles and takes them off in game.. and looses the sight in his eye... his mom is not going to shrug her shoulders and go "oh well.. thems the breaks" She is going to go into full on Momma Bear... and call her lawyer.. and rip you and your parents to little poor pieces..

suzie soccer mom is definitely an issue.

However, those running the show are responsible for explaining the risks. And to most of the parents I've talked to about their kids playing is 'we know the dangers, but he'd rather do this than hockey' or 'better than sitting around in front of the tv or computer playing games.'

People just have to be involved and take a more active role if they're going to allow it. You have to coach/mentor a bit.

I'm sure there's a risk of SSM running that same shit if their kid get's tackled hard in soccer or checked hard in hockey. With the proper safety gear, airsoft probably is safer than hockey.

However, SSM and her lawyer is a definite threat to the OP if the correct precautions aren't taken. You aren't a day care, nor should you expect to be. There are risks involved with playing, just like any other sport, and the parents should acknowledge this and agree to the terms of their kids being allowed to play.

Yeah make tons of waivers that specifically say, you are not liable for anything that happens to them. From a little thing like a blister to them falling off a cliff.(thats of course if you have a cliff on your piece of land)

I'm from hong kong so I've seen tons of little kids playing airsoft regularly. however i absolutely hate playing with them due to the fact I've personally have had extremely bad experiences playing with them.

Was playing a game during the summer in Hong Kong, 13 year old spoilt brat comes with his dad, said kid is 5 ft tall holding a ECHO1 M240B, game starts he team kills half our team when he is prone on the floor spraying wildly. Guy has no trigger control at all...... His dad can't teach his son shit cuz all he does is smoke in the corner talking to other old geezers (no offence to the elderly)

anyway point is, it really depends on the maturity level of the kid. I believe 16 is the best age as I have seen some very mature 16 year olds.

No offense taken, us old-timers do talk up a storm.

To the OP.
Read the thread below first. It describes how a fully grown/mature/self determining/waiver signing person was injured in an airsoft game and his "guardian" now has to decide if they should crush the offending party like a bug. Even if it turns out to be a false alarm when the machine gears up and gets a bug up it's ass it is ugly. If someone decides it's time to make an example of this group they'll lobby their superiors for a hunting license.

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=145801

After reading the thread imagine this.

Little Billy's dad brings him and his friend to a game. He's done it a few times and it's gone well. But after one game the kid gets hurt. Has to go to the hospital and earns a scar on his face. Maybe not even a BB, maybe he climbed up one the structures and caught a nail.

Billy's dad says boys will be boys. Billy's mom is less willing to let go. She talks it up with her circle of friends. She realizes her little prince will "never be a model" (quote from a dog bite case). She gets the lawyer, she gets maybe a few anti's lined up, she gets on the news. So it gets kicked up to the insurance provider for the property. Maybe they decide the policy does not cover this and they put you in the wind, and it'll just keep getting worse.

Out of all the sports I've seen kids play, I'd have to say football is the most dangerous. I was involved with martial arts and hockey when I was younger; and although there is risk, it's actually not that bad. I've watched my friends kids play football a few times at the 8 - 15 years old level; and I saw a broken arm, a broken back, as well as a few other bang ups. This was all within a few games. I think airsoft in it's most basic form, is not as dangerous to mortal health. But then again I'd rather break my arm or my ankle than lose an eye.

The other issue that I have brought up before, is that there is no certified league or regulating body to truly protect these kids. A group of people who have set up proper insurance, and regulate things like FPS, and safety gear at a certain age range. I know that youths can be good players, and exhibit sportsmanship and maturity, but where is the line. It's great that you take the time to explain the risks to the players and parents, but who appointed you? Who regulates/governs you? Who comes out and makes sure your facility is up to code and adequately safe? Who decided on what "properly engineered" safety gear is mandatory to protect those that cannot protect themselves? Who dictates boundaries like FPS, age ranges, or other protective regulations? Does your field have an dedicated outside phone line, first aid trained staff, an AED on site, a rescue/evac/fire plan? Who is your governing body? Do you have detailed pamphlets, documents, and paperwork for the parents to go through that "detail in entirety" the risks, game dynamics, and laws associated with airsoft? Did you answer no to any of those questions?

It "may" be safer than playing hockey, football, etc. But where is the regulated league with the proper insurances and safety? Who can guarantee that these kids will be adequately protected, reasonably safe, and that "all" due diligence has been exercised? That's why these things exist, because in the Canadian legal system a parent can't just "sign away the rights of their children". There is many legal facets that have to in place prior to this happening and before it will be considered legal.

I think kids can very effectively play airsoft, and that they should. But there's a right way, and everything else is just very wrong. If parents want their kids away from the xbox, they can sign them up for karate, hockey, basketball, ...whatever. Or maybe someone should spend the massive amounts of money and years of time to set up a properly regulated league. That way everyone is legally protected, and the safety of the youths is being carefully observed.

...Unless you think you know better?

I'm not trying to call anyone out here, just put things into perspective.

I want you to stop putting kids on your field. Tell your airsoft group leader that it's just unacceptable. IF one of those little kids get hurt in a major way, you will be held responsible. It's just a bad idea overall. I don't have much to say for the sniper action though, I don't know how big the field is. Anyway, if one of those kids get majorly hurt, it could make the news and then the public will view airsoft as some crazy dangerous sport, and we of course don't want that. We have to show the public that we airsofters are responsible and mature people. But still, 8 year olds who get dropped off? What are parents thinking these days .. seriously. I was 17 and my mom wouldn't let me go airsofting!

I'm as much worried about what will happen if anyone gets hurt as the next person.

Do any of you think it should be a good idea to show our group "leader" this thread or do you think it'll make a bigger mess?

The only thing I'd show him is the door.

I laughed pretty hard at that.

I would show him the thread. There's no reason not to educate him about this kind of stuff. He can even posts his own reasons and opinions, so that things can be clarified for him, and the opposite side of the coin (the dangers, etc) can be explained to him.

how old is your leader?

29 I think.

And he wants 10 year old kids at his games? What's his username? Atre.. Nevermind...

At that age, you would think he would know better about the liabilities that he is potentially exposing you to, or he simply doesn't care.

You haven't yet clarified what his role as a "team leader" is .. could you clarify that?

Take me to your Leader.

I would advise your leader to grab a cup of maturity with some intelligence sprinkled in.

From reading this thread, it appears he does not understand, common sense, common law and "The Standard of a Reasonable Man"

If is it your ground, you are the one that will be put in the legal blender. Someone will hire the crack legal team of Dewey Cheatum and Howe. Your family will quickly find itself involved in a lenghty and costly legal affair. Best case scenario, you waste 30,000 in legal fees, and walk out of it. Worst case scenario, you waste 200,000 in legal fees, and have a civil and or criminal judgement against you.

Ask yourself a simple question, how much of my ass to I want hanging in the wind.

Waivers are a good start, but not foolproof. Depending on how your waiver is worded, and presented to the participant. Along with your actions that support the waiver, you may have no issues.

Start allowing non guardian/parent monitored and supervised players, and this could quickly blow up in your face.

If your "Leader" is soo keen to have what he wants. Have him put up the Liability Insurance. Have him take all the responsibility from you, by renting the land from you during the events.

But ultimately it is your land, do as you wish. If you provide a venue that has value, people will show up.

He isn't a member of any of the forums. He runs the group so he plans when the games will be. There is a web site >>> http://www.cvairsoft.ca/ <<< He also runs the Facebook page & group. I said before we have 2 fields mine and one that is on crown land (just found that out) He also does night games once a month....

So.. he's running a business, and making money off of the potential legal risk that you run.

Crown land? Has he got permissions to actually do that? I don't think that would fly in Onterrible...

There has not been any permission givin

So...Let me get this straight.

You have a 29 year old 'Team Leader' who is allowing 8-year old children to run around with replica weaponry, without waivers or parential presence, and shoot each other on Crown Land, of which has not been granted permission for public use?

And he's telling you YOU'RE the bad person?

What kind of Hell do you live in?!

Dude, seriously.. tell your parents that this arrangement is very hazardous to their financial health, and that you want something to actually be there in the bank to inherit when their time comes.. This guy sounds like he's playing you, and playing the odds elsewhere, in terms of legality. Bad news all around.

We do have waivers but their legal power is beyond me. It is true this group is only 6 months old but what is going on is just crazy.

Don't forget, he runs night games once a month as well.

Forgive me.

I see alot of kids without eye protection on, in that video on the first page of that website

Here's an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...DW8NqwQ4#t=71s

I don't think mommy is going to respond with kid gloves when sonny comes back half blind.

Clearsoft and Kids at night, with no protection, or parents.

No waivers.

On Crown Land.

In Sweats, Jeans, and Hoodies.

Why has nobody been shot by Police yet...?!

wow after watching that video i just want to cry seriously? NO EYE PROTECTION? even i feel naked if i went on the field without eye protection.

Your situation is just a fucking huge mess. This so called "group" leader, he's full of shit, tell him half this forum says so. I'm positive all these guys agree with me. It sounds like hes getting full of himself being the "leader" of 80+ people. I bet you he's pushing you into letting everyone play so then everyone will look up to him as some God... "OH THE AMAZING LEADER IS SO COOL, HES THE BEST, HE LETS EVERYONE PLAY, HES SO EASY GOING, ETC ETC ETC" Like damn, I feel sorry for you. He is using you like a tool. Stand up for yourself and tell him to fuck off.

Clearsoft is the best thing about that video. You're a lot less likely to get shot if the cops show up on crown land in the middle of the night, and their flashlights shine through a clearsoft gun, than reflect off a metal pistol, held by some kid in a hoodie.

I know eh? Kids are going to come home blind :)

I think we've established that by now. XD

But seriously. This group has serious trouble. Is this worthy of being reported to Police?

Here's the "Waiver"
Liability waiver
It's pretty thin

This is the group's rules CVAU Rulebook:1) This is fightclub. First rule of fightclub? Dont. talk. about. fightclub... To an extent...I mean.. well ok, talk about it. 2) This is a Gentleman's game. You are expected to make your best judgements for when you get hit. Please do not ignore hits, this just ruins the game for everyone. 3) When you are struck, RAISE YOUR ARM and YELL "HIT". This shows that you are hit and must start your respawn process. If you fail to yell HIT, then there's really no reason for the other team to stop shooting at you. 4) Similar to rule 3, is a GUN HIT. If at any time you take a direct hit to your weapon (but NOT your body), yell "GUN HIT". This is a 10 second penalty, but does NOT require respawn. Simply stop, DO NOT SHOOT, and count to 10-100. 5) Respawn and Penalty Counting. You are expected to count in 100's. For example: "One One Hundred, Two One Hundred, Three One Hundred, etc) You do NOT need to count out loud. 6) Penalties and Unsportsmanlike Conduct: Certain game types will require certain rules. These should be adressed before the match begins. If you are hit, have yelled "HIT", but are still being shot at, address this and it can be reviewed. 7) Equipment and Safety: Generally speaking, it's up to you to decide what you need to bring to any match. Eye Protection is MANDATORY. Keep in mind the time of day you're playing, and your surroundings. Dress appropriatley and expect to get a little dirty ;)

I heard there was a cop car that drove by at one of the night games....

That ain't the half of it.. the other video shows players using aviator and regular glasses (huge gaps), blind-firing galore behind cardboard shields and tall grass, no mouth protection/face protection for clearly under-aged players, crap-soft everywhere.. I'm no elitest, but it's hard to justify calling that "airsoft" when it's clearly a shit-show in the making. Time to up the game, set some standards, and ditch that leach of a game organizer. It can't get much more mediocre than what i saw on those videos.

I personally believe if you are old enough to drive a 1/2 tonne vehicle at 120km/hr. you can shoot airsoft.
BUT I also feel an 8 y/o should have the same rights to play. Maybe not in the same group...
In MB we have airsofters and than we have Cuddy's commandos
They are an all age group. Run by adults. With waivers etc. And do an amazing job of it.
At the same time I don't thin just anyone should host all age events.

From what these Comox Valler Airsofers are doing... morons.

I agree. Beautifully said.

Okay.

I have read that waiver on the site, it is a complete joke. That waiver will not protect anyone, regardless of who they are.

If you are expecting that waiver to protect you, your family or their assets. Simply, forget about it. That "waiver" will do no nothing for you.

Secondly. I saw people in that video, either not wearing eye protection, or wearing shop glasses. You need FULL SEAL GOGGLES. If a bb slips behind a set of shop glasses, opps, you are screwed.

Even the pictures on the website have people with either no eye protection, incorrect eye protection, or their goggle on their forehead(during what appears to be a game).

I would quickly discontinue any relationship with this asshat. I just wish facebook had a dislike button, or better yet, a report stupid button.

This individual, and his methods of operating, will get you in a world of hurt.

Your ass is hanging way to far into the wind right now.

Break Contact, Create Distance, Seek Cover, Reorg in the Sanity

I forgot to mention any airsoft gun under 500 FPS is allowed on the field......

maybe you guys should take up upgraded nerf guns instead...holy shit fuck no eye protection and shooting in the dark

Even if they did, they'd still be morons.

Darkness+500FPS+No Eye Protection = One hell of a legal shitstorm when some kid gets fucked up the ass.

That is a old video, everyone has to have some form of eye protection now.... I have tried for months to bring in more safety, rules, and legal protection.... not much has changed.

So what does that tell you then. If you are attempting to be the voice of reason and safety. With deaf ears around you then. Nothing will ever change. That is until someone gets hurt, and it comes to the lawyers or police involvement.

This guy is "charging" others to play on crown land? This guy is trouble, I'd space from him fast. Maybe even let others know to dump him. He's twice your age and telling you what to do on your parents property. This asswipe is using you. I thought he was someone your age. Start over, find a sanctioned area/group to play with. Hopefully Janus can help you out.

The Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions.. whether they be from your own misguided efforts, or as a result of the organizer sabotaging your efforts.

From what i see on this side of the screen from youtube and that CV site, he has no business being involved in organizing games, period, full stop.

Never mind showing that wanker organizer this thread, he's a lost cause - instead, show this thread to your parents along with a cup of coffee.. because it's time that they wake the fuck up, before it is too late.

I just showed them... they are not happy... at all... Thanks everyone who has posted on this thread and hopefully it'll help others who are not sure what is going on.

Take care of yourself. We are here if needs be.

Exactly. If they aren't happy, then they can take their sore asses elsewhere.

I apologize for the coarse language in some of my previous posts in this thread, but this is a serious matter, and I'm actually really angry at this 'leader'. It sounds like he's a complete prick.

Anyway, keep safe, and hopefully you can teach some of your responsibility to other players in your area.

CV Airsoft organizer / assister / helper person (whatever you want to call me) here; there's so much incorrect information going around in this thread it's not even funny. So I'll ignore most of what's in this thread and tell everyone this: We're all very new to this. Not once; I repeat not once has a single person voiced any concerns to me, and I am essentially next in line to the 'leader'. I do understand that the age limit is well; pretty laxing, well since tonight (I learned as I read). That said: I will be changing what the restrictions are or I will simply not play anymore.

As for protection, eye protection is definitely mandatory; I wouldn't let a single person out of my sight without it. The sealed eye protection seems like a good idea. Although, without minors, I don't see much need for any more protection personally. We might need to enforce it in the future as the guns get more powerful but I just haven't seen much of a need for it and I've been shot by the worst of the worst from what our players bring.

All I can ask of this thread is to please not assume everything here is true because it's not. if you have any questions just post them in this thread and I will respond and will do anything I can in my power to install protective measures.

The owner's son, helper, participant or whatever has pretty much explained it clearly and concisely, the youtube video's and your own facebook website pretty much just confirms it. What part of that, doesn't quite jibe with your "leaders" warped sense of airsoft reality?

In person no one has voiced concerns to you? What about the OP?.. and you, or the "great Leader" blew him off?

The lack of an age limit isn't laxing, it's negligence. Again this is the main reason that the OP posted up the original topic.. everything else that you consider 'mis-information' came secondary to light of further discussion. Did you, or your "great Leader" do any background research on what is generally considered acceptable, or not, in an airsoft venue, before opening up these fields to the great unwashed, and under-aged masses? Did you take into consideration any legal ramifications of what is needed to protect your arses, that of the players at the events, and that of the land owners?

It doesn't seem you or the "great Leader" did, at all.

The sealed eye protection seems like a good idea, eh? Go figure. Sorry, but that one is a given, for all but the most clueless. It's pretty much the base minimum for airsoft PPE. With your low calibre of blind-firing, no MED range observing under-aged players (read potentially sue-happy parents in case of an incident) with no trigger discipline, the bare minimum should be a full-on paintball mask.

Ever had a BB bleeder? Ever picked a BB out of your skin? Ever seen someone with a tooth shot-out, or a broken limb from running down a dark trail in full-on 'zombie-panic' mode? Can you contemplate how awkward it would be explaining to 12 year old Johnny's parents why they've now got to spring out of pocket for $4000.00 worth of Post, Cap, and Crown to replace that missing tooth, or why he is sporting a brand new 10 week duration cast on his broken leg? While not a totally common happening, it does happen. With the crowd you are inviting to events (by video evidence) it's got a better chance of happening, sooner or later. These are all the things that potential lawsuits are made of, and much more - "Waiver", or no "waiver".

Oh, and both airsoft videos do make a lie out of your assertion that eye protection is mandatory at the games. Both videos show players without eyepro, and others with shop glasses, aviator glasses (!) and other inappropriate eyewear. Ansi 87.1+ safety rating, full seal eyepro, or go home in shame... Ever seen a BB bounce around inside a close-fitting pair of shooting glasses after it slipped through a gap? With players who know and practice a MED, and good trigger and aiming discipline, tight-fitting shooting glasses, maybe - but not at your calibre of player.

Does your field organizer test FPS at every event? The OP has indicated that up to 500 fps is permissable - how do you tell who has what, without a Chrony? .. and at 500 fps why bother? 500 fps is way hot, especially in the hands of a newb crew at the shit-show event.

Sorry, but the balance of evidence is stacked against you. There may well be a level of exaggeration present, but as the OP is the land owner (or son of) the potential liability that he faces in case of an incident, is very clearly shown by what is seen in those youtube videos, and the organizers own site.

Protective measures? For where? Privately owned land where the owners likely don't want you there any-longer, or at games being illegally played on Crown Land?

I'm going to regret this post tomorrow, i'm sure. It just pisses me off to no end to see the willfully blind, leading the under-aged and potentially blinded down the airsoft path of ignorance and negligence.

Until you clue into how to actually organize a safe event with guidelines and standards, you and the "great Leader" shouldn't really be organizing anything more complicated than a pizza order delivery to your doorstep.

This is a sorta off-topic post, but... "Comox Valley Airsoft"? I've lived here for 10 years and I haven't heard of this until now. Just as I'm about to move, too.

Edit: Were you the guys who held that game behind Highland last year?

This is important. "sealed eye protection" doesn't mean just take a pair of ski goggles out, or put tape around the edges of your sunglasses.
At 500 FPS, mouth guards at lest should be necessary, if not proper masks. Losing a tooth isn't an urban legend. A field runner made a post a few days ago, worried about the ramifications of a player on his field having his teeth shattered.

That statement right there sums up your total level of understanding and ignorance at the same time.

Eye protection seems like a good idea.

You do not see a need to enforce sound safety policies and procedures.

You choose not to enforce sound safety policies and procedures.


You are either too young to know what you have gotten yourself involved with, or you have chosen to be blindly ignorant of what could, would and might happen. OR - Worst case scenario, you honestly lack common sense and any form or intelligence when it comes to safety of those around you.

Your ignorance, inattention to detail, and blatant disregard for any common safety practice or policies that are involved in any normal airsoft event, is mind boggling. These are not merely suggestions or the airsoft rules Nazi's attempting to enforce on you. Everything that has been mentioned from the allowance of Minor Players, to Eye Safety, to Chronography Registration of all devices. Would be and should always be a Normal Safe Operating Policy and Procedure.

You should pay attention to the advise and take notes from what has been posted here.

But then why would you. You have already admitted that you will madly and blindly stumble along your current path, as you see no need or reason to change.

age-wise.....
Mentally 18+ ALWAYS
Physically....I'd say post-puberty. It's really odd to play with kids 2/3 of your height (and I'm below average for height)

Again, it's about legal liability. Not maturity, not how fit someone is mentally (unless they're obviously impaired otherwise)

communism seemed like a good idea too.

new coke seemed like a good idea

crystal pepsi seemed like a good idea

hooking up with that mysterious looking thai girl seemed like a good idea

...

wait... did I just say that last one out loud?...

This sounds more like a good idea/bad idea skit from animaniacs.

proven eye protection doesn't seem to be a good idea... it IS a good idea, this isn't an optional thing. while modern prescription eyewear lenses can offer some pretty good protection they can't completely cover enough area to prevent the one in a million shot from sneaking in and blinding someone for life.

That isn't a joke. That's reality. If someone can be lucky enough to win a 1 in 40 million odds lottery, some poor bastard can be unlucky enough to get a 1 in a million shot through gaps in his eye pro. That's not an assumption of anything, that is murphy's law.

Going through gaps definitely happens. Try putting a set of open glasses in front of something round, shooting at it, and see how many rounds end up inside.

Here's a quote from a thread a couple weeks ago. This was with sealed goggles, but they were poorly fitted.

I said "seems" because I obviously have to get everyones opinion here and raise MY attention to the "great leader". Can you guys please turn off the flamefest? I'm at the point of understanding and I'm really just ready to move forward now.

I'm just incredibly thankful no one got hurt due to negligence on our behalf.

Nope OP never mentioned a thing to me, nor mr leader (meaning the leader never said anything to me, he could have chose not to tell me possibly which would be a totally different problem on it's own). It's sorta hard to get things done if no one says anything.

For the new folks on here this is yet another familiar behavior pattern on Airsoft Canada. Here's how it breaks down.

• New Player signs up with question Something like "Hi, I'm new and at games is this normal when something like X happens".
  
  
• Community response The response will be either "yes that's normal, man up you pussy", or "no that is wrong, take these steps to remedy".
  
  
• Player response If the player signed up to win validation for a preconceived idea that's not within the normal scope of play they will begin a rapid spiral downward till they melt down. If the question is good one (like this) then the tread will continue and more information will develop.
  
  
• Community response As noted if the question/person is stupid then they get stepped on. If it is a good question a solid thread will develop.
  
  
• 3rd Party joins conversation If the thread is like this one the 3rd party will soon sign up to sing their own praises and attempt to deflect criticism and diminish their actions by attempting an ambush of the original poster.
  
  
• Community response The replies and questions become extremely specific and pointed. Please do not forget that this is not the first time this has come up. Everyone knows just what question to ask, just what weak point or grievous mistakes the 3rd party has made and how to counter their defences and excuses.
  
  
• 3rd party response The third party will continue to defend themselves and their friends. They'll do anything they can to duck and dodge try to put themselves in the light of victims of a smear campaign.
  
  
• Community response This is when the hate machine wakes up.
  
  Any questions?
  
  

No questions. This isn't my problem to fix for THIS online community. It's a problem to fix to keep MY community safe.

Free advice; if someone asks "any questions" and you don't have anything smart to say then keep your mouth shut.

Unfortunately anything thing happen IN YOUR communitiy affect the rest of us since majority of the soccer moms out there are painting anything with a gun as evil doom bringer of life as they know it, so smarten up and take the advice given by some long standing members here to heart. It's so easy for this hobby/community to be painted as bad apples because of teh actions of a few retards.

While I totally agree with you; I consider myself a pretty rational and understanding person so I have to bring up one point. Have you ever thought that bashing, flaming, attacking, name calling, and a lot of what I have seen above does absolutely nothing to help fix the problem for the entire airsoft community, and actually makes it worse?

You're full of shit.

Excellent summation of the process.



Running across the runway while the 747 hurled towards me seemed like a good idea at the time.

Playing in traffic seemed like a good idea at the time.

Looking down the loaded barrel of a gun with my finger on the trigger seemed like a good idea at the time.

Come on folks, I've got a hundreds of these!! This is why the nanny state makes laws in the first place!!

That was a solid and logical response.

Well you are a smart and reasonable guy no? you should be able to turn off the bullshit chatter advice /flame and keep those whos advice that make sense. There are plenty of answer to fixed the issue at hand that has already been mentioned above, Full seal goggles is a start, minimum age is another. This hobby with its rapid expansion has its pros and cons just like paintball years ago, unfortunately with the addition of internet thrown in and keyboard warriors added to the mix all fucking commonsense are thrown out. So another freebie advice don't step into bullshit, observe/read more, argue less. there are clubs around or near your area should you wish to ask for help. Remember all it take is one of the little kiddies to get hurt because someone choose to be a nice guy and ignore the advice given here, Guns and kids whether its real or just toys don't mix in the general mind especially soccer moms.

And if you're at all intelligent you'll recognize that ASC is a wonderful information resource full of people who have been in your position before. Those people will be happy to provide you with things they've learned from experience, especially in the interest of safety.

So if you want to fix safety issues in your community, then this is a good set of brains to pick for ways how.

You never did address the issue of using land owned by the government, without their consent, to shoot at kids half your age. There is something called trespassing which your entire group is guilty of.


That is unless the OP has lied about everything he has said in this thread, as you hinted, or accused, whichever goes down better.

Firstly this is not a flamefest. As I for one have yet to grab some thermite, pressure up my flamethower or soak any rags in gasoline.

A member of your community has expressed valid concerns.

We are attempting to educate/inform you of what would be considered a normal safety best practice in the rest of Canada.

Secondly, in this context there is no: this group, that group, my group and/or your group. Whatever happen with any one group can and definitley will impact the remainder of us. If the Rabid Soccer Mom Society does not eat you alive, the CBC will definitely provide an incomplete picture of what happened.

If you choose to operate in a public forum / venue, that has the exposure that you do. The remainder of the Canadian Airsoft Community can be tarred and feathered with the same brush. This is regardless of the community or forum(s) you are a member of. The actions or lack of action by a group, team or forum in Halifax, can impact your little community on Vancouver Island.

Our primary concern is simple. We a much larger national collective do not want become involved in needless and unwarranted scrutiny or imposed regulation. Due to the actions of neglience or incompetence of others.

I suggest you seek legal counsel in regards to the issues and concerns we have expressed. You will find that we are not collectively talking out of our asses. You will find that for the better part, we have expressed legimate concerns and the possible outcomes or consequences.

What your group is guilty of is not really in question. We've seen your videos on YouTube, read your website, and heard from a witness; three strikes your out. If your earnest in your efforts to improve things and take this seriously, first off "good for you", and let us give you some advice.

Some of these are suggestions, and some "must" be mandatory.

- The guy who "runs" your group, seems to have made some very inexcusable descisions for someone his age. Tyler Voigt is it? I'd get some space from him quickly. Someone needs to give his head a shake. If he persists, threatens, or bullies anyone that tries to make things better and safer, I'd report him. He's collecting money on crown land, issuing phoney bullshit waivers, and shooting at children, for starters. He may not go to jail, but he needs to know the authorities are watching.

- If your going to run a pay airsoft site, you'll need the following. A private or rented property that is zoned for that sort of thing. A business license, a properly written waiver, the proper insurance, and a detailed information brochure on all the risks associated for players/parents to read. That's just for starters. You'll need all the things business must have though. Some are listed earlier in this post.

- If you decide to just run a non pay, private team kind of thing; then private property will do. If you have "any" members that are underage, you will still need insurance, waivers, etc. That is just scratching the surface.

- I'd eliminate anyone under sixteen immediately, either way you go. If someone under eighteen is going to play, they must have a parent/guardian present "at all time", have read and understood the rules, and signed a legal waiver. Also Insurance must be present to protect them and yourself.

- If your playing on private property, you will have to consider the safety of your neighbors and community. You may even want to let the local authorities know what, where, and when you play; so there are no "situations".

- Safety gear is an absolute. "All" safety eyewear "must" meat the CSA, ANSI regulations, and "must" protect your eyes adequately all the way around. Not to mention they have to be reasonably held onto your face. If you trip, stumble, get bumped, etc, they "must" stay on. All safety eyewear "must" remain on a players face at all times (no exceptions), until they are clear if the gaming area, and in a designated "safe" zone. A safe zone "must" be safe from projectiles originating within and outside of itself.

- "All" players including staff, team leaders, etc, "must" have "all" of their guns chrinographed and checked by a responsible, suitable, and adequate individual(s) on a regular basis. The instrument used "must" be properly calibrated and tested for accuracy, and "all" manufacturers instructions "must" be followed during it's operation. You'll also want to make sure that every gun on your field is legal as well. There are some posts and links to what you should know, here on ASC.

- Other safety concerns "must" be observed. Such as but limited to: the safety of all players, staff, visitors, spectators, wildlife, environment, civilians, property, and attendees at all times and with all reasonable entirety. Think about making boots with at least 6' - 8' ankle support and non-slip soles mandatory as well as eye protection. Throat, yoke, mouth, face, and head guards for those under eighteen as well, so their jugulars, temples, teeth, etc, are protected.

Now that I've barely just laid out some "really basic" ground rules, you should look into it more. There are teams, groups, businesses, players, and staff here on ASC whom share a complete and near unlimited Airsoft knowledge and experience. Look into what they have done for detailed field rules and safety precautions. You can copy if you want. Many large game ops have a very long and detailed list of field rules that'll help encompass your whole game experience.

I hope you make all necessary changes, and remember that we are here if needs be. Don't attack us for we are legion, and have been there done that. Our concern is that the best interests of airsoft in Canada and those involved is being taken seriously. Safety is paramount, and hurt feelings are not. Stay away from selfish morons who will hurt your fun, safety, friends, and players.

If your looking for any other info, it's probably posted here a hundred times. It will seem as if it's endless reading, but that should tell you that there is many important things to consider. If you act honestly and with truth then we are in your corner.

Good luck!

To be fair, Plague (OP) has PM'ed me and asked for help. Being fairly local to him, I'm actually quite willing to help out.

Also dude, I'll be on my way through Comox in a couple weeks. Wouldn't be shit to me to sit down and help you figure out the problems in your group (primarily safety) and maybe help you come up with solutions.

I mean.. every group has its problems, right?

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...97046823_n.jpg

I mean..

nothing to see here...

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...78358271_n.jpg

completely legit...

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...76354715_o.jpg

I can't see anything wrong here...

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...21467931_o.jpg

milutary graed smoek

BUT NO... seriously, we can work with this.. You just need to slapfuck some of these tards.

I'm glad you decided to go help in person Janus. Your a gentleman and scholar. I hope you guys appreciate his time and listen to what he has to say.

To a certain degree, i do apologize for being rather bullish with my comments. However, by the same token, being 'nice' often does not get a message across about an issue with the required urgency, where corrective measures are required to be taken, and attitudes un-fucked post-haste. There are potentially dire consequences about to arrive in a shit-storm of epic proportions, for all involved. You were defending an undefendable situation and making excuses for circumstance in your first posts, pure and simple.

Now that we've made nice-nice.. get your "great Leaders" attention on this, and focused upon the recommended fixes given to you so far. This whole situation cannot be allowed to continue. If the "great Leader" continues to be an obstinate dick about it - then it's high time to cut him loose and/or distance yourself from the impending shit-storm.

Well said. I should apologize for my language and offensive manner as well. I just don't like seeing these kinds of situation where people are ignorant and think they "run shit like a boss". You guys will get great help from Janus I am sure, so listen well. Good luck, you'll need it.

I guess you missed one...Unless you count that:Lake Trail Rush - Game Day - YouTube as "adequate" eye protection?

I'll give you a clue: Rayban aviators (and especially cheap knock offs) aren't protecting nothing but the way you look.