Air Support?
 

Wondering if anyone has made successful use of fixed-wing air support for outdoor games, and if anyone can offer any input to make it worthwhile.

A couple of the players here are pilots (myself included) and have access to Cessna 172s and Citabrias. We are hoping to integrate a work-able system for air support for the larger milsim games next season, while remaining in the bubble of legality while using the aircraft.

Here's the system I'm planning for, Let me know if you have any recommendations:

Basically the aircraft would operate as "armed" reconnaissance. The aircraft would be controlled by a point on the field equipped with a radio with the ability to communicate with an observer in the aircraft. Opposing teams would have to capture this point and hold it to maintain control over the aircraft (Much like the AC-130 system in Battlefield). Teams would have to forward all comms to the operator at the point to forward instructions to the aircraft.

Once a team gains control of said point the aircraft would orbit overhead at 500' AGL (any lower is prohibited by Transport Canada). The observer in the aircraft would be able to communicate enemy troop movements and the location/condition of objectives to the radio operator, which would then be forwarded to the team controlling the point.

The team controlling the aircraft would also have the ability to call in "air strikes". Operators would mark a target with a smoke grenade/grid reference and forward it to the aircraft. The aircraft would then make a pass over the target, and opposing players finding themselves in the area would be "dead". (Again, Transport Canada unfortunately prohibits the dropping of any object from an aircraft).

There would also be "Stinger Missiles" scattered randomly around the field (PVC pipes) which would be the defense against the aircraft. They could only be used once per tube, and would result in the aircraft flying away from the battlefield for a determined amount of time. Their use would have to be radioed to the operator at the point by the opposing teams comms, and then forwarded to the aircraft.

That said, any input or ideas?

it sounds cool, and expensive

As long as the plane is camo'd up.

The idea has a lot of potential - I've pondered it as well, though the airspace in my area (Greater Vancouver) is way too busy, and the local field locations are in built up areas for the most part, preventing flight down to 500 AGL (field neighbours would get pissed). Ah well.

Your idea seems workable. Just keep in mind that it's all based on the ability to communicate with someone on the ground via radio. You may need to test this out beforehand, as well as secure permission from the aircraft owner prior to using non-aviation band radios inside the aircraft. The blister-pack GMRS radios likely won't have enough range to reach an orbiting aircraft, whereas the more powerful UHF radios (carried by the passenger) may cause interference with the aircraft's radios and navaids (though I'm not 100% sure if it would be an issue). As well, check the CARs regarding electronic device usage before you do anything, just to be sure.

I like some of your scenario ideas - they would work well in a longer milsim (i.e. weekend-long types). Larger games would help offset the cost, where a small portion of each entry fee could go towards paying for the flight time.

Hope your plans come to fruition sometime soon - Cheers!

Game Control staff, on the ground serving as observers can fulfill the same role, without having to burn AVGAS--

Unless you can make baddass plane noises coming from overhead, not quite the same thing...

Predator Drones are nearly silent from the ground

What would be the operational cost for the aircraft, and how would that translate to the players?

Increased fees?

Lots of pilots who need flight time. it's really just a matter of co-ordination.
The comms issue though needs resolution

As far as comms go... 2 people in cockpit - pilot and spotter. Spotter has radio for contact with ground. Relays information to pilot as necessary.

PS. I think Ultralights would be perfect for this kind of work. Can loiter around for a while, quiet, cheap.

Operational cost depends on the plane used. I assume that most of these pilots the OP is referring to would be renting, as opposed to owning their own aircraft. Rentals for a Cessna 172, in my area at least, go for around $125-$145 per hour of flight time (time that the engine is turning). After taxes, miscellaneous fees, fuel surcharges, etc., you could be looking at $150-$175 per hour flight time. The Citabria the OP refers to might be cheaper, but I'm not quite sure - I've never flown one.

Factor in all required checks, engine run-up, taxi/take-off, and enroute time between the airfield and the game location, you could be looking at a few hours, and perhaps between $300-$500. Lots of new pilots would be happy to spend that as they work at building up their hours, but a couple of dollars from each entry fee could ease the burden.

The comms issue isn't the physical setup of who sits where, it's more to do with the usage of non-aviation band radios inside the aircraft, and the potential interference with the aircraft's radios and navigational instruments.

Your thought of ultralights is interesting, though a separate type of licence is required for flying ultralights, versus a regular single engine Cessna. It would require those pilots to actually go through some conversion training to get an ultralight endorsement. However, it could end up being cheaper after a while, and ultralights are much easier to operate from unprepared airstrips. Hell, they might even be able to operate from the airsoft field itself (with the appropriate safety measures in place, of course).

when I am up north it is not uncommon for small planes to fly by low and loud. Its a sweet feeling and a wicked sound when those guys haul ass overhead.

Sent from my T8788 using Board Express

Well, never had any problems with use of non -aviation transmitters inside the aircraft before... since you will be flying VFR anyway NAV interference should not matter either.

As far as licensing goes, normally people get their REC license for ultralights. Your PPL/CPL should be fine. Get type rating and you are good to go. Can log hours too! Here is CARS for ya! http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviatio...073.htm#401_26

The rate for the 172 is a flat $110/hr, gas included. From the ramp to overhead to the field ranges on 15 minutes to 35 minutes depending on which of the fields in is play for the day, so the overhead ranges for $120 to $50 for ferry time. Endurance is 4.5 hours, the maximum loiter time is about 3 hours. Maximum cost for a sortie is $440. At a larger milsim with ~80 players, an additional $5 per player on top of game fees covers 100% of the cost, with the aircrew taking no cash. Additional players results in less additional cost per player.

There's no issue with comms interfering, no radio NAV aids are used during VFR operations. VHF radios should be able to communicate with no issue, seeing as there's no obstruction between the operator and the aircraft when airborne, and the area of operations isn't father than 5NM away from the field.

Berkut - Coulda sworn that ultralights were an endorsement as opposed to a simple check flight on type if you have a PPL. Indeed you're right - just requires the appropriate check flight. Having only flown 152/172, it's been ages since I've even thought about what else the PPL covers. That being the case, yeah, I'd have a look at the possibilty of ultralight usage. Cheaper, plus the slower airspeeds would make it easier for observation. That being said, $110/hr for a C172 is not all that bad.

And OP, if you've had no issues with using the radios up there, and the aircraft owner is cool with it, then have at 'er.

The FAC role isn't one you just jump into on game day, you have train for it. That would up the cost but for the lucky bugger who gets to buzz around in an airplane all day it would be a blast.

You'd need a bit of training or rehearsal. Otherwise the FAC will wander off, get shot, not be on the net when the plane is orbiting, and generally have it all go awry.

i donno exactly what the regs are, but i heard that you can drop stuff from aircraft under certain conditions, mainly if the owner of the field approves. I think it would be cool to release .12s from an aircraft as "napalm".

Also for those who are unaware, you cannot strap guns to the side of your aircraft as it counts as "modifying the aerodynamic properties of the aircraft" and is therefore pretty much illegal.

If your dirty rich though, a helicopter with a sniper would be pretty cool.

Rotor wash would probably be disastrous on the BBs trajectory.

I wonder if stalker tried that...

Wash or not, this guy looks like he scored at least a few kills:

Helicopter Airsoft Door Gunner - M249 SAW - YouTube


Check out at 1:35, can see some poor guy try to run from the fire on the upper floor of an open-roofed building. He didn't make it. Likely affects trajectory but not enough to prevent you from putting down effective fire.

With a MG ok. But I don't think a sniper in a helo would be very effective. From the accounts, It's seems to be hard enough with RS, I can't imagine an airsoft sniper doing a good job.

i think its just a matter of leading your shots onto your target.

maybe just get a m14 so you look like a sniper....but your actually firing from the hip spraying rounds all over the field. (considering the height, you probably could literally do that...)

The TC CARs state you can drop objects from an aircraft, but I cannot create harm to persons or property. CARs 602.23

I've never dropped anything while flying, so I'd assume one would have to call up Transport Canada to clarify the legality of dropping BBs as "hazardous".

The sheer volume and cost of BBs you'd require for an effective "napalm" run would be enormous. The absolute cheapest bio BBs for volume are $17.99 for 5000, and you'd need at least 20,000 to somewhat blanket a small area. With that each napalm run costs $80, and the costs of having air support would start ballooning out of control. Not to mention you'd have to find space in the airplane for 10's of thousands of BBs.

Sniper no machine gunner yes. A sniper even with an m14 would be prety useless from a chopper. Youd need at leas c mag or box mag itll be alot of rounds fired per target hit even a hi cap mag wouldnt quite cut it me thinks.
To the OP your idea is awesome would be cool to have the advantage of over head recon and add a new depth to the game securing control centre and the missile launch sites, heck houd hardly need any other side objectives just a main one to go along with those things as most folks would be crazy busy tryin to secure missile launch sites befor securing the command centre. Once you had all those under controll youd prety much have a cake walk to the final objective

Only issue I would have is about dropping things from the 500' line. Having something the weight of a smoke grenade dropped from from a few meters is already painful, from 150 it's simply dangerous.

I know it depends on the waight of the thing but I wouldn't be really confident about having a plane throwing things at me.

For the plane itself I hope you get a version with windows because I remember the DR420 I learned how to fly it was just not possible to open the cockpit in flight.

Costs aren't that bad. Lots of new pilots want flight time; if you pay even just half of the cost of their flight time, they'll be happy to log low-priced hours. (Hell, if I had flown in the last year -which I didn't as I don't have the money needed to burn 200$/month just to keep my 172 check active at the flight school), I'd be happy to do that.

The issue is more how to do that in a way that it adds plus value to the game...

as for dropping BBs, i was thinking of dropping the cheap crossman rounds...15000 for 20 bucks. although they arnt bio (destroys the environment..just like the real thing!) I think it might be just a matter of what the terminal velocity of a 6mm BB is. I doubt the terminal velocity of a BB is higher than the muzzle velocity of a airsoft gun. if you used .12, then the amount of energy transferred to whatever they hit is going to be pretty low.

i think if you could prove that a BB dropped from an aircraft is weaker than a bb shot from a gun, i think you could possibly get approval from transport Canada saying that it cannot cause damage.

I cant remember exactly, but my ground school instructor said something about it being perfectly legal to drop a flour bomb from an aircraft onto a house. Again, cant remember what exactly he said.

If you ask me, i don't think is a good idea, even if it is legal...but it would be epic.

My question is how big of a field you need to really use an aircraft? I doubt pilots want to fly in tiny circles for 3 hours..

Lol, when you need hours 3 hrs of flying in tiny circles works.

how many BBs do you think it will take to effectively "napalm" an area? You dump a bag or box, it's either going to be a very narrow strip or one giant blob of BBs.

There's other video of that game with the helo door gunner.. one of which was from the ground... it was extremely effective fire from the air.

Also one of the videos had a comment from the gunner himself... rotor wash seemed to be nonexistant, or at least consistent enough that you could compensate for it... but that was with his 400+fps support gun. Also, the other side of the helo had a sniper, the machine gunner said he wasn't as effective, probably because his low rate of fire and lack of training with shooting from a moving vehicle. The MGer could trace the path of his rounds while the sniper could not.

I might add, some helo pilots just do not want you shooting from the helo.
But you just have to find an ex-combat helo pilot, they fucking love that shit lol

i wonder how much damage a BB could do to an aircraft.... probably not much, but what about the more sensitive parts of the aircraft? (rounds bouncing into the cabin, getting into air intakes, static ports, paint) I dont think shooting at a helo is a good idea, however you could always have teams equiped with a "stinger missle" to take out the helicopter.

I guess the plan involves not shooting at the aircraft, as in not allowed.
Anyways, seems complicated to pull off for the payout it yields in term of immersion. Not sure it is something I would fully appreciate personally.

I know shooting at or from an aircraft with any thing is illegal, I bet dropping buckets of bbs from one is also probably less then legal. Of course I'm taking about in Canada, as I know this is all legally possible in the states.

F$ck me! That's the raddest thing I've seen! HAhahaha....imagine how friggin fun that'd be.

Surprise Bitches! MWahahaha

Not sure if it was mentioned, but has anyone thought of using an airsoft gun mounted on an RC plane? I remember seeing thse guys "dogfighting" RC planes with "airsoft" on yt

Here it is:
Flite Test - Airsoft Gunship - The Kraken - YouTube

Yea its not the greatest implementation, but i think it might have some potential

If you're shooting me FROM it, expect it to be shot at.

Precisely. Don't expect to have a tactical advantage because people will shoot at it regardless if they are told not to.


Sent from my universe to yours

Actually, i think i'd agree with that. Its "realistic" that if an aerial vehicle (drone or w/e) is spotted by opfor, that it would take small arms fire. Plus, the ability to shoot it down prevents the operator from abusing such the asset in unrealistic ways and force him/her to use it strategically.
And if it does get shot down, unlike a real heli thats worth hundreds of thousands along with the legal strings, an RC plane is relatively cheap. I could see a build thats cheap externally, but robust where it needs to be so that when shot down, the important parts can be salvaged. Hell, it could also turn into an objective.....recover the shot down drone :P

Idk, just an idea.

Sounds like that could be fun, even better if it was a scaled down replica of a predator drone.

There are several RC Predators on the market right now. So using one in a match should be do able. Also to confirm dropping BB's from aircraft it would be illegal to do so. Not so sure about RC/Drones. But no dropping ANYTHING from a heilcopter or fixed wing aircraft.