The amazing R-hop test project!
 

So I've been doing a lot of reading on other forums about this, and whenever someone bashes it, says it's not all it's cracked up to be, or says there's no gain, I'm not convinced they understand the physics behind the mod, or have proper test conditions.

So firstly, one HUGE misconception is that it makes a ridiculously huge difference in range and accuracy.
This is not false, but tends to be over exaggerated.
Why?
Well most often, someone has a STOCK gun, and upgrades it immediately to an R-hop. Obviously you're going to see a huge improvement.
But when you go from something already really good, like a firefly or PDI-W, then the gains aren't quite so drastic. Then we're talking about 5-10s of feet difference as opposed to an extra 120ft.

Second, applied hop
On an AEG, you don't have nearly as much initial pressure to drive that BB past the hop rubber with a lot of force. I haven't seen an AEG yet that doesn't jam before it gets to it's max hop setting. And the more hop you apply, the more force is lost trying to force the BB past the rubber, resulting in FPS losses. With heavy rounds and low FPS, you typically can't apply enough hop to a round to get it to fly straight.
There's a lot of complications comparing AEG performance to GBBR performance on heavy rounds, so I'll explain it in more common terms;
Most 300fps GBB pistols do REALLY well on .30s, whereas a 330fps AEG typically does not. If a low fps AEG and GBB pistol have the same muzzle velocity when shooting a .30(that means they're both shooting around 220fps on the chrono or whatever it comes out to), the pistol tends to achieve a flatter trajectory, and the AEG tends to jam from over-hop before you can get it shooting to it's max range.

So that's complicated stuff I'm not confident about with out testing.
How am I gonna prove that crap out?

WELL, what all that means is that the Rhop should allow you to use heavier rounds on AEG's that you normally wouldn't be able to use.
So as far as proving the rubber, it's pretty straight forward, so here's what I'm gonna do (and I'd LOVE to have some other gunsmiths test this out as well!)

Get a low FPS gun 300-330fps, start shooting with a high quality hop rubber, then install an Rhop and re-test
-Test with the .25g BB they would typically run at that FPS
-Then with .30s, which often fall short on low FPS platforms
-Then with .36s, which most definitely will jam anything under 350 before it will fly straight

THEN, repeat that test with a more common 380-400fps AEG
-Test with .28s as they would commonly run
-Then with .36s, that should still do alright
-Then with .43s which should outline a clear difference between the two!

EDIT: Also needs to be compared between longer and shorter barrels. Ideally testing with the same gun. Practically, I would accept a graph of results from various longer and shorter barreled guns.

Now the reason I'm upgrading the same AEG for both is to ensure the internals play no part on the test, since the mod only affects the hop/barrel end of things.

So, what we SHOULD see is the R-hop being same or slightly better with the common weight of BB, and then perform better with heavier ammo.

So of course not being a physicist myself, what I put forth could be totally ass backwards, but that's what the practical test is for. Once we get some factual results, we can figure out the science from that. If nothing else, this will prove if the R-hop is really a better rubber, or just being puffed up by people who just don't know any better.

We're building a measured range at two of our Mb fields this year (that's the pan anyway), so I'll have measured results. (Gonna do my PTW as well since google maps tells me I'm shooting stupid far)

So for any gunsmiths interested in partaking, make sure the mechbox is getting a REALLY good seal before testing. We want the AEG's to be in peak performance condition BEFORE getting the R-hop.
Measure out the distance you're shooting and please use a spotter to verify where they land.
I'm sure we'd all appreciate having detailed performance results on this :)

Also it's the end of march and we've still got a good 2ft of snow here in Mb, so it could take us a while to set up for this =/

I've currently got an R-hop in my G&P 249 at the moment, and preliminary testing looks good, but not mind-blowing (testing at 380 with .28s). Getting good range and accuracy, but certainly not an extra 60ft, maybe 20-30.

Buddy o mine has the same G&P, so I'm gonna borrow his barrel to quick swap between R-hop and standard rubber to do some real time comparison if I ever manage to get my ass out to a game sometime soon lol

Finally! I look forward to the results.

I'm trying the same with my AEG setup (G&G SR-25, with the stock brass barrel and with a 6.01x650mm too).
I'will use 2 differents hop up rubber (a stock one and a A+ rubber) with 0.25, 0.30 and 0.36g bbs for every setup.
I'will test the accuracy and range ;)
So i'll post the result here when it's done.

In my mind the only way to do proper range test is as follows:

1. Indoor range of 300ft.
2. A gun vice bolted to a really heavy table.
3. M16 platform for easy barrel and lower receiver swaps. Do a 300fps and a 400fps and throw in a 500fps - why not?
4. Identical barrels (prommy because they are well QCed and consistent)
5. Identical hop up units
6. Firing tests in semi-automatic and full-automatic;

For each hop up rubber you want to test, you build a barrel-hop up unit combo.

I can do #3,4,5 but have no access to #1 and 2.

If you want to go even more scientific, do n=3, meaning 3 Rhop barrels, 3 PDI, etc.

Given a choice I would want to do the following - rhop, PDI, flat hop, regular mound sleeves

John

We have 3.5 feet here in central Saskatchewan!

Looking forward to the results as well.

Well, count me in.
I have a G36 that is currently stock, but works great.
I also have a L96 clone that is getting upped. With a PDI hop-up chamber it uses AEG barrels, so that will give a hint in that direction too.

And I should be able to setup a range if we get access to the MALL again...

Your original hypothesis isn't too far from what I've observed. While the R-hop IS more consistent, it doesn't achieve a crazy WTFBBQ increase in accuracy and consistency when you're lifting .28g and lighter ammo, given you already had a "baller" setup before (talking about something like a Madbull or Prometheus 6.03 with a PDI rubber and a good hop unit)

Where it really shines is its ability to lift the heavier ammo without jamming via the longer contact patch, more gradual application of backspin and dwell time of the BB in the chamber. And by using heavier ammo, you WILL see an increase in accuracy and consistency just by nature of using the heavier ammo.

Stealth, agreed on all points!
300ft indoor range would be ideal, but outdoors will have to suffice.
Quick swapping identical barrel assemblies will make it easy to compare results in field, but taking the gun back and upgrading it to R-hop should produce the same test accuracy since you're using all the same parts you did before minus the mod. It just requires two tests.

The gun vice is an excellent point, I'll have to brace the gun against the side of my truck box or something while shooting to make sure there's no human element to inaccuracy!

At 500fps I'm worried there either won't be enough grip over the short patch, or the results will be too close without using some pricey extra heavy ammo.
At SOME point you do need to switch to an ER-hop, although I'd like to know what that point is, and how long the ER hop actually needs to be, I don't want to deal with that yet. At least not until we understand exactly what the R-hop actually does.

One argument I read was that the amount of time the BB is in contact with the hop patch is insignificant since the number is so small. I dismissed is as ignorant assumption since the man clearly did not grasp the scale of forces involved. Any way you look at it, the hop patch is DOUBLE the contact area. And if the BB goes from being in contact for .5ms to 1ms, that's still double the contact time. It obviously has to be doing something lol

Hunterseeker armories theorizes that it also reduces bounce in the barrel, allowing the BB to stabilize quicker. If that's true then we should also be able to shrink the ideal barrel length from 420 down to whatever. I've heard as low as 247 for AEGs, but in practice the magic number seems to be between 380 and 430mm. Between using heavier ammo and less bounce, perhaps that number could very well shrink to 247?

And I guess we'll find out if BB's really do have ideal relative velocities. It's been my experience that every weight of ammo like to sit around 320-350fps to get it's ideal flight stability. So now with the ability to add more hop to heavier ammo at lower speeds, maybe we'll find destabilization points where the BB just isn't going fast enough to maintain a straight path. Or that once the ideal backspin is reached FPS then equals range? Like if a 310fps gun can only send a .30 to 180ft without having that bump in the flightpath, and a 380fps gun can send it out to 260ft before having the hop hump.

It's exciting to work through this now, it's like the missing link of airsoft science! :D

Also we need a standard report model;
Make/model of AEG
barrel length
ROF
Brand of ammo used
test conditions (indoors, slight wind, etc)
distance verified by (tape measure, measuring wheel, rangefinder, shot at metal can, shot my buddy, videotaped on receiving end)

Standard hop ____ type rubber
fps on zero hop
fps at ideal hop
distance and spread with ____g BB
distance and spread with ____g BB
distance and spread with ____g BB

R or IR-hop
fps on zero hop
fps at ideal hop
distance and spread with ____g BB
distance and spread with ____g BB
distance and spread with ____g BB

You'll need to watch out for weather variances if you're testing on different days.

Another aspect that I'm interested in is the trajectory of the BB.

At what range does the BB start to arc upwards and then come back down to your original firing plane? I suspect with rubbers like PDI with a shorter point of contact you're going to see it arcing upward earlier than Rhop.

Sigh... How much I would give to have an indoor 300ft range...

with each setup, take a range reading at 50 ft, 100 ft and 150 ft from there you can extrapolate the cone of fire and calculate the grouping size relatively accurately imo. If you need to make a shot beyond 150ft, you'll have a lot more to worry about than hopup accuracy, and imo it's pretty uncommon to engage at that range effectively.

I have done a non scientific test between a madbull 6.03 using a pdi W hold and an IR hop with mnub.

Power is power, you can't get more than what is there in a 400fps setup, so you aren't going to see magical range increases, and in my test, I didn't. What I did see was flatter trajactory at higher hopup settings, where a standard setup you would see a pronounced hump in the flight, with Rhop it was much flatter throughout the range. Only at the more extreme settings you would see a more pronounced hump in flight.

Grouping sizes did shrink, and it was definitely a lot more consistent with fewer fliers, but without actually doing it indoors with paper, I can't give you a measurement.

I was using .25s and .28s up until the rhop install, now .28 is the lightest I use, going up to .32s

Also, there's a lot of skewed data, people install R-hops immediately on the gun without addressing air seal problems... R-hop is something you do when your fps variance has been reduced to <5fps from shot to shot. It's normally not the first mod one does to a gun, more like the last mod... but before dsg of course. :P

Although I totally agree that what you get from 400fps is what you get, we just don't know what we can get from 400fps. Maybe we do, but we just haven't proved it yet.
6 years ago, the maximum range of an airsoft gun in manitoba was like 80ft. Since then the numbers constantly been going up. Amos' VSR-10 and my VSR-10 seemed to top the scales with their impressive distance, but now it seems there might be a few guns shooting even further than those.

So now, what we get at "400fps" and using .28s, there's obviously a set maximum performance we can achieve where you just can't get that BB to fly any straighter, or further, until it runs out of momentum. And THAT point we may have reached with hop-modded PTWs and tweaked VSR-10s. We generally know what a .28g BB is capable of.
But we're changing a big variable, at the same "400fps" it may be possible to use heavier ammo. So the relative velocity drops, but the range may very well increase. Or we may have the same range and much better accuracy due to the heavier ammo.

Now before we start using high speed cameras, let's just stick to simple methods
flattest trajectory possible
maximum range
Accuracy noted, I wouldn't be too anal about it. Man sized target, torso, would have trouble hitting a school bus, etc

Accuracy can only be compared against same weight ammo. So you have to test .28s against .28s. If we find the R-hops can handle much heavier .36s with ease, then of course we can state what kind of accuracy you're getting, but you can't make it a case for accuracy since the heavier ammo is the likely cause of it. We have to be careful how we go about wording the results.

For example;
Say the Rhop and standard hop have the same accuracy on a .28
But the Rhop allows you to run .36s, which may drastically improve grouping at range
You can't say the Rhop is more accurate, but you can say that a .36 is more accurate than a .28

But if the Rhop is more accurate on .28s like you said, then we can say it's a more accurate hop.


It's nice to see some positive results already though!

Reducing the number of variables in this experiment is key. Down to using the same buckings. Tricky stuff. I agree with Stealth ... an indoor range is going to be really important for gathering data.

Well, if you're looking to test a minimal amount of guns, by yourself, in the most accurate way possible, then yes.
I'm hoping there will be enough of us plotting enough data to give everyone an average figure.
I'm more interested in accomplishing this as a group, because it gives our findings significantly more clout. And most importantly, since it requires personal technical skill, we'll also be able to weed out those who are potentially not installing them correctly.

"Somebody does an elaborate analysis of R-hops across 10 guns and fails it miserably, and we only find out later that this person has no manual dexterity what so ever and messed up all the installs" lol

The scientist in me says you need to do this lab style.

The pragmatist says we'll learn something even if it's a windy day.

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4079674880/hE0E362A9/


in all seriousness,
would any local indoor field owners like to chime in? it would help quite a bit to know if there's a: any facilities big enough, b: anybody willing to support this.

I am excited to see the results of this.

I have a bag of Rhop patches that I ordered many months back that I have been FAR to lazy/busy to install, nor do I believe I have the skill to do it without spending some more time watching others do it.

Why not find a Polar star to use as a test bench for this? It would make the FPS changes quick and easy.

Because a polarstar isn't an AEG, they're closer related to GBBRs.
How a BB gets shot in an AEG is very different than how it acts in a gas gun

This. And not.

The working principle is a LOT closer to an AEG, as there will always be a constant amount of gaz released, vs. GBBRs that literally wait for the BB to leave the barrel before cycling. It really acts closer to an AEG as there is a constant volume of air, but the pressure is instantaneous, unlike an AEG where the piston moving forward ramps-up the pressure... I say it's worth testing too.

I should have one up this summer, when that is the case, I might just "have" to test again...

The physics:

Hunterseeker, rhop creator, has his wobble theory.

http://forums.airsoftmechanics.com/i...p?topic=8507.0

If correct, it would explain how people manage to get 200ft+ ranges with less than 400FPS.

http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/07-a-02.htm

ATP tells us sub-1.5 joules it should basically be impossible to reach 200' without hop lobbing or impractical elevation adjustment. Yet people continually report CRAZY ranges with R-hop on airsoft mechanics forum and elsewhere.

I'd love to see more results from our community, as well as anyone with a very good physics knowledge that could shed some insight into whether or not this is actually possible. I understand some flat hop mods increase range slightly, or are great for tightening up groupings (shredders, firefly, etc.) but I want to know if this extreme range is possible.

Another point - HPA does not expand as propane/CO2 does - another likeness to AEGs.

So pretty much the only difference is like you said - the difference in how the air pressure is introduced to the BB.

If anybody becomes proficient at installing the patches though I'll be sending a barrel or few your way :P

The initial pressure is the thing making all the difference, that's what determines how much hop pressure you can apply. That's the specific and important detail that for this test means a polarstar is more closely related to a GBBR.
Yes we can test them on P*s and GBBRs, No we cannot compare an R-hop AEG to an R-hop P* or GBBR.

We've been breaking 200ft with AEG's with out Rhop for a long time... and not by over-hopping either.
-All his testing was done with .25s
-Nobody getting out to 200+ft ever uses anything lighter than a .28

And furthermore, read the whole report, this is from his closing statements;

I believe the common weight shot on ASM is a .3 or .32 I've even been told to use .34s and higher with 400fps guns... one was a p* user, a bunch more toting AEGs. The only issue is... who the hell makes those weights in a high quality round?

300' straight trajectory is suspect for me... I've seen videos of people shoot rhopped guns, but it doesn't look like 300 feet to me. None of them have a tape measure to measure it. What we need is a warehouse that's 300' long.

Yes but to further your quote and to put it in proper context, the remainder states:

3.35J is 223% of the max field limits, equating to approximately 600FPS with .20g bbs. Note his claim of consistent 225' shots is based on those parameters. (where for him 'effective range' is something like an 8" drop, where max range is what is achievable with elevation and hop).

http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/images/09-a-046.gif

ATP has data based on multiple BB weights and several joule ratings, all of which falls within the same general model. However, the RHOP appears to break this model achieving very long effective range (flat trajectory) with conservative joule levels, prompting HS to produce his wobble theory.

Now I'm not saying that the ATP is irrefutable by any stretch, but until I see observations submitted to the same experimental controls as the ATP we have to assume it accurate. I am not convinced flat 200'+ shots are possible without a hot gun, over hop, aiming very high, or incorrectly judged range (or any combination of these). I have personally made 200' shots but they were a result of aiming very high above the target. There are, however, several claims with R-hop to be in excess of 200' with a flat trajectory AND remaining in the ~1.5J range. I would like to see these conditions documented and confirmed, and I hope if someone sits down to collect this data they can produce some reliable results.

I've been known to slightly overhop or underhop depending on the terrain, and adjusting my optic or simply point of aim to get desired range.
Before you ask, overhop in open terrain with long sightlines, underhop in bush so I can arc it over the bush and have it drop on my target.
I'll have probably quite a bit of data to contribute to this project. I have three of my own guns I plan on converting to IR-hop, as well as future customers guns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jdFHuetXJg

This video in particular is crazy, and despite the amount of hop up chamber/nub/sleeve combinations I've tried over the years I've never even approached this.

I have an rhop z kit enroute and will be attempting the install. I have a 220' indoor range and will be attempting to document my ballistics as best possible to see if I can replicate the results.

Additionally, here is another interesting read: http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/04-a-01.htm . Further just adds to the apparent magical abilities of rhop.

*Edit - As a side note, one of the major holes I feel in the ATP is this fact:

It seems that the relationship between force placed on the hop-up by the standard style arm/nub unit vs the constant friction provided by r-hop may lie the secret to it's success.

What gun is he using? And what internals?

That's pretty standard for rhop... mine has that kind of consistency.

I have shot my ir-hopped p90 on a measured range and hit 60m with every shot with no issues. The range stops at 60m and it is a slight incline up a slope. I could probably shoot farther but I lose sight of the BB.

TC: the gun is stock fps from vfc.. 340ish... he doesn't mention what weight he's shooting.

For my test I was probably using .28s @ 1.5J since they were feeding the best that day .

I wish he was standing in front of the camera for all of that so you can determine if his muzzle is close to level to the target.

The P* gun I ran just this weekend with Rhop was hitting 130-150ft with zero adjustment on the dial. It was far too difficult to track BB's against the snow to see if I was getting ridiculous 200-300 ft ranges.

I am almost finished a ER hop, but In the test shooting and sanding it was shooting better than the R hop that I did that replaced my SCS setup from way back. IMO it's easier to upgrade a gun to 600+fps and shoot .43+ to get the same ranges as putting together a ER hopup YMMV.

R hop is a very inexpensive "upgrade" to a stock gun. however it's not a simple upgrade to get right like say the SCS system.

Long range shots with low power are definitely possible. I have a Cyma AK105, mostly stock, I downgraded the spring to a m90 (shoots 310-340 fps with 0.20g BBs, yeah, not very stable) and installed a Prometheus barrel and a Guarder clear sillicon rubber. Measured with a surveyor's tape, with 0.28g I get 62 meters (that's around 203 feet). My tests were done on a slightly windy day, due to the high fps variation, the spread is about 2.5 meters wide (8 feet).

My A&K spring SVD, fully upgraded with AirsoftPro piston and sear, Prometheus barrel and piston head, AirsoftPro hop up chamber and a PDI W-hop rubber shoots around 410fps with 0.20g BBs. The measured range is a bit longer at approximately 64-65 meters (210-213 feet) with 0.28g and 0.30g BBs. The spread is about 1 meter wide (3 feet) at that distance with slight wind.

This not only prove that 200 feet is doable at low power (~1 joule), but that increasing the FPS doesn't yield much of a range increase. I was shooting while standing, unsupported and with iron sights. I am sure that other players here have much better rifles than that, as that AK105 is mostly stock, and the A&K SVD isn't exactly the most accurate platform.

Yeah. This.
I had a stock marui P90, put in a guarder clear and that was it, shot around 170ft, grouping wasn't too good, but it got them out there lol

Anyway this is really the bottom line of this test.
1) starting with already GOOD guns, that shoot far and accurate, and comparing THOSE against R-hop
2) having MULTIPLE people do the same test, to average out any differences in personal skill, personal bias, and extreme examples.

That second bit is really the most critical part. It's difficult to take any one person seriously, no matter how accurate they say their results are. Are they a good gunsmith to begin with? Did they match FPS to BB weight? Is the mechbox achieving maximum seal? Are they using a JG M4 or a marui M14 as a test bed? Did they install the R-hop properly?

So multiple makes and models of guns, already shooting what's considered to be "good", compared directly against itself with an R-hop.
Hopefully we get a broad enough range to make observations like R-hops work better in ___ style hop chamber, or on average most guns perform better, or maybe it doesn't make a big difference in an M14.

And as an added bonus, we'll also get some solid data on how AEG's are shooting! I really want to know the exact, exact numbers on my guns, especially my PTW lol
ahhhh I wanna go do some shooting now O_O

So far test results are looking good
Nothing drastic yet, but small advantages over high quality rubbers as were predicted
Nothing measured on pen and paper yet, working on that lol

Anyone else noticing gains?

Everyone in Edmonton area has gone R-Hop / ER hop. It's a night and day difference when compared to stock guns.

My opinion in shooting distance and accuracy worst to best,

Stock
Stock + SCS
Stock chamber + upgraded rubber + SCS
Stock Chamber + upgraded Rubber + SCS + Upgraded Bore
Upgrade Chamber, Upgraded Bore, upgraded Rubber, SCS
same as above line with barrel shimmed + ear plug mod variants.
PTW hopup - STOCK
Upgraded Chamber, Bore, Rubber, R HOP
Upgraded Chamber, Bore, Rubber, R HOP w/ M nub mod
PTW Tackleberry Mod done properly
Upgraded Chamber, Bore, Rubber, ER HOP w/ EM nub mod


EDIT:
depending on the hopup chamber in your gun that may actually be a far better upgrade. Typically a SCS + Rubber upgrade is the cheapest and best bang for buck upgrade. Costs ~10-15 dollars.

EDIT 2:
The PTW mod done properly IMO is just above R hop + M nub + barrel shim + ear plug mod variants. This comes down to the technical skill and time spent doing said work. PTW hopup and components interface in such a way that they don't require barrel shimming or the earplug mod (technically ensuring the buffer cap is shimmed properly -is- the same as the earplug mod.

Off topic a bit but, have you noticed the SCS to actually make some sort of measurable difference?
We've been putting them in and taking them out of guns here in Mb since they came out and I've never noticed any difference between using them and regular hop nubs.
From what we've observed in the field, whatever performance that may be gained with an ARS rubber/SCS combo is always outdone by a V shape rubber like the firefly or PDI-W
I can see it making a far more noticeable difference if it were somehow used with a flat rubber, but it seems the thickness of the hop rubber's bump absorbs whatever radius is supposed to be deformed into the rubber...

Aren't you supposed to cut-out the bump when installing SCS?

If it was used with the bump, yeah, it's kinda useless and I can see why there is no difference in the shot.

I noticed no difference with a systema bucking and scs spacer, compared to factory nub with the same bucking in my m14.

I left the scs in there though.

I am excited to give the R-hop a try once I get back into the swing of things. I had a very nicely hop moded PTW carbine I was using last year that could sling .28's amazingly far with great accuracy. M130 cylinder, 420 fps. I spent alot of time fiddling with it and measuring max range. I am curious to see if the R-hop can actually top it with a similar FPS setup.

I cranked my P* STG up to 540's with .2's, using .28's I was still able to get good effects with an R-Hop.

One day I might buy the red nozzle, and really take things to town and see how well it can go.

So you're at 540fps and still able to use a regular length R-hop?
I'm guessing the ER-Hop is exclusively only useful for super heavy BBs then...

Wouldn't a REAPs bucking be exactly what an SCS should be? I've used both and no noticible difference myself - compared to a Prometheus Purple and nub.

I have also tried shaving off the mound on a sleeve to use the SCS - you're exactly right by saying the sleeve isn't thick enough to engage the actual bb.

Yeah. Ideally the SCS just turns a flat rubber into a V-notch rubber.
The advantage I can see is it being more stable since there's less rubber to give, flex, and bounce.
Not sure most chambers have the reach to lower the SCS into a flat rubber though?
Anyway flat is the way to go these days.

My favorite quote so far has been on the indiana airsoft forums;
"using a longer contact patch on the bb it exerts force over a longer distance and period of time with the potential to give slightly more consistent Hop. Mind you this is a difference between .0001 and .0002 of a second, so it is statistically minimal difference."

statistically minimal? ITS A 100% INCREASE!!! lol
It's one of those guys that would rather disprove an upgrade with physics, without truly understanding what physics are actually at play, rather than test it in the field, THEN explain why it does what it does.

I also have one of these equipped in my hop up arsenal for testing - you'll notice the curve in the nub unlike the prommy bridge or flat nubs.

The sleeve is also very similar to the PDI-W Hold - same contact points, although a very noticible difference in actually sleeve length.

Edit: Although with any flat nub i've tried (Prometheus, X High-Tech) like the SCS, all of my adjusment arms have never been able to engage well enough when the mound is shaved off.

http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/media/cat...-60_1_mark.jpg

To use the scs propperly you have to do two things.
First is to remove the hump/mound on the rubber or use a smooth one like the promy purple one.
Next is to do 1 of two things either mod the arm by building it up more so the scs can enter the hop window (about 2mm or the same as the original mound on a given hop rubber)
Or you can cut some squares out of an old rubber and use that to create the spacer needed to allow the scs to apply hop. If you just use an scs along with a shaved/promy smooth rubber you will find that even at full hop there is hardly enough hop for 20's.
I have gone the route of using promy smooth rubbers with the bridge style buckings. I find itll give the same centering effect of a scs AND the larger contact area provided by an rhop.
I think the scs should work ok with an rhop but ghe bridge or flat type nub/tensioner should be ideal as itll provide the largest posible contact area for the bb.
With the promy smooth rubber and bridge tensioner in stock hop up chambers and madbull 6.03 tightbores i have great results. I run 400ish fps and can hop 30 and 32 bbs with the hop only set to mid way.
Aside from the quietness and ability to run 36 and 40bb's in my 500fps bolt action i find not much of an advantage these days to runing the BA as the range advantage is only small tho effective range is slightly greater due to the higher energy and energy retension in the bolt action. But really the main advantage is stealth with the BA.
200 plus feet with an AEG and promy combo vs 300ish feet with the BA in lezs dense areas yes the BA still rocks but once places fill in and maximum ranges are rarely achievable the aeg is far more usefull

I find it odd you dont get enough pressure out of the promy ones. They are made in such a way that the nub itself has the additional hight to it to push it further into the window.the one pictured seems a lil short but it could just appear that way due to the angle of the pic.
Unlike the scs that needs some type of spacer to work the promy ones work fine in my m4's and mp5k.
As for the sleeve having a nub on it like the w hold i find that redundant as the reason for the rhop flat and bridge tensioners is to provide a larger contact area for the bb. With some kind of hump in the way (most likely in the middle of the area the nub is pushing on) itll be like. Lil pressure -LOTs of pressure-lil pressure.so in fact your really not taking advantage of the larger area as the main source of hop would be the hump/mound. Anyone see what i mean?

I'm following - I would never use the W-hold types of sleeves with the flat nubs - the X High-Tech nub just came with that type of sleeve as well as this one pictured.

I used the Blue softer prometheus nub and it actually just squished around (used a VFC clear hop up chamber to watch exactly what was happening - smart right? :) ) which misformed the nub

I still have the black harder prometheus flat nub that I might give a shot with your idea of shaving down the mound and adding rubber from another hop up - unless ofcourse it actually doesn't need that extra bit of material.

Side note: Apologies to the OP if we're totally derailing your entire thread in reference to the R-Hop mods. I honesty just can't get enough of ideal hopup/range mod talk with different options!

False from my experience. I am was running ER hop + EM nub shooting .30g. It takes the right amount of adjustment and filing to get the patch to fit properly and not over lift .30g. It's far easier to just shoot .36g+ with these two mods

with .43g BBs at 1.7 joules 250ft measured shots in controlled conditions are a cake walk. Hardball is uber fun ;)

just to clarify; "super heavy" meaning anything over .36
.36g is what I'd expect people to be using at the average max field limit of 470-500fps

Where are you playing that AEG full auto are permitted to shoot up to 2.25j?

the typical limits in Alberta are ~1.65 or 425 fps.

Super heavy to me is >0.43g IE shooting .8x steel bbs

I run 500fps bolt action. Lotta guys play "big boy" games 500fps on aegs. As far as i know some places play 450-500 fps on aegs all the time.
Im guessing manitoba is one of those places that use higher fps limits.
I personally have no issue with 450 for aegs and 500 for un certified snipers and 550 for lvl2 600 for lvl3 alass i am but one in many and cant change the rules on my own. Plus with the recent influx of "n00bs" especially younger ones i think we are likely better of as is for now (400aeg 450BA)
500 is 2.32j fyi

Their is a hardball group in Edmonton, we play 550 minimum auto, no limit bolt. We picked the 550 minimum to discourage newbies from getting in not that it mattered as we are invite only, I suspect the bottom will rise to 600-680 as most guns off the shelf can shoot into the 550 range nowadays.

2.25j is 495 fps which EAR's Bolt action limit (manual operated bolt no semi auto's or locked to semi electrics).

max field limit anywhere is always bolt action
max fps of bolt actions is typically 470-500fps
I never said anything about AEG's at 500fps.

.36s are rare enough to come across, I've never even seen a bag of .43s in person lol

Also, Big boy games? IN MANITOBA?? BAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Guys here used to complain and force chrono guns that were shooting 310-350fps, the province is not known for having thick skin LOL

Out of curiosity, has the nub that comes with this bucking ever been tried with the R hop?
http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/upgrade-p...75-degree.html

I would look at ASM articles for that information. I use a 3M pad cut to length

no, but I've used a ryusoku baton and I'd say it works better than the M-nub, at least in theory.
Because it's round on the arm side, it's actually maintaining perfect perpundicular pressure on the Rhop. Whereas the M-nub maintains slight angular pressure.
The difference probably isn't even noticeable, but it would be worth trying a side by side comparison

Also, update, what I'm getting back from the half dozen Rhops in the field;
Most of them are just noticing greater accuracy, not particularly better range
one noticed a "fantastic range" difference, likely because his PDI-W was too tight on the seal and preventing proper feeding lol
And one noticed a big difference because his hop rubber was both stock and crap.

That is what I use with my R-Hop, won't compare it to other anytime soon. It works, shooting great, I'm happy.

Yup! One day I'll pick up some .4's+ and give it a whirl, just to see how it performs then. I'm very pleased with how it all works now, even on .28's. I don't see the need for anything "better" just yet. Whether it be this potential part or BB.

I'd love to really test and fuss with the setup, see what it can take... but not now :D

HS5 actually addressed that directly (I think it's in his video on the LTH unit)

the pivot on hop ups (the m4 ones anyway) is so far back of the actual window that the force applied is near enough to perfect for it to not matter. the material of the m-nub should also even out the pressure considerably (that's what it was designed for). if that's not enough, you can use a snibble or a hop up unit with level travel (but if the fitment is poor, the whole situation can be reversed with the nub applying pressure unevenly in the opposite direction)

Good to know!
Has anyone else been doing before and after comparisons?
I haven't had the chance to do much since I have no range in my backyard, Wrath is really going to have the best test results since he's right next to a good range.
But so far the comments coming back from my customers are very consistent, if not technically precise; the R-hop is better.

I installed my first all custom r-hop with flat nub the other night in my completely stock G&G mp5 sd6 @ 380~ fps on .20's

Tested today with .28's and a 100' tape.

The gun was shooting decently before hand with the same weight and brand of bb's with an effective range around 160-170 feet. While the bb would fall to he ground around 180 feet.

Tests today with the r-hop had effective range out to 200-210 feet with the bb's falling to the ground around the 220 foot mark.

This was with the hop to the off position and very slightly over hopping the .28g bb's
I plan on getting some .30g or heavier rounds and testing again.

Keep in mind, this was my first attempt at this mod ever... I'm sure there are areas of it that I could improve on. Needless to say I am pretty pleased with the results. Shot to shot consistency was great, accuracy was great, and effective range was an eye opener. 200' with .28's out of an all stock mp5?! @ 380 fps !? I'm sold on the idea. My ptw only bested that by about 20' on .28's and that was @ 420 fps

Yes I'm sure that a pimped out setup with a nice normal hop setup could achieve the same or slightly better results. But bang for your buck, hands down this is it. Hell mine was free plus the time it took to install it.

My custom patch is a section cut out of an old TM gbb pistol bucking from my old 226. Same with the flat nub to match.

I'm curious to see how your MP5 would have done with a PDI-W rubber as well
We've been finding the difference between an R-hop and PDI-W is fairly minimal on the same weight. Never did get to test both with .36s though.

So far with the same weight of ammo, you're looking at 10-15ft extra with an R-hop, but a much flatter trajectory, and less fps loss from applying hopup

I think this is the biggest reason for the extended range.
I've found PDI W-Holds simply cannot lift .32g BBs without applying a great deal of hop - sacrificing raw range due to loss in velocity.


BTW - we're still looking for a 200ft indoor range. Got the lights, cameras, guns and equipment, if you're in the GTA with access to such a facility, contact us. We'll make it worth your while.

I'll be R-hopping my 249 this winter, I've been waiting for a quality 6.08 barrel since I got my 249 years ago, now I'm torn between a 6.13 orga and a 6.08 PDI =/

Il probably end up using .30g or .32g bb's in the mp5 just to keep the bb travel time to target down a bit. The .28's were getting there relatively quickly so that's also a plus for me.

Not quite the same as with my mp5k doing only 300 fps. But the flat hop mod I've got in there is sending .28's out to 150' accurately... I might try the r-hop patch in that gun too just to see what it would do.

whoever is spreading this bullshit about r-hop not being adjustable needs to stfu.

I've had to set like 10 people straight over the last couple months.

Rhop is 100% fully adjustable as if stock hop.

Now I kinda wanna do this to my new TM MP5k...

whaaaaaaat people seriously thought it was a fixed hop? lol

I think they got that impression from botched installs...

I can see how the difference between "sky high" and "I'm shooting down some satellites" can seem the same.

You mean it's not?! :rolleyes:

I support this :D

Il give you guys the results after I convert my low fps mp5k from flat hop to r-hop. Probably won't see much of a difference but who knows.

Il toss in a factory CA hop rubber and shoot some test with that too just for reference between factory, flat hop, and r-hop.

On another note - we'll be stocking M-Nubs starting this Saturday.

sweeet.

Finally got around to installing a custom patch in my mp5k. 300~ fps with .20's shot it today with very minimal wind, hop tuned to a flat trajectory, shooting .30 bb's gave me a maximum effective engagement distance of 175'. Torso sized targets, easy. BB's were dropping to the ground @ 190-200'

This was measured with a 100' tape.

Pretty crazy for such a low fps. Yes the bb's were a tad bit slow getting there but still. Crazy.


I re-tested my stock g&g Mp5 SD6 r-hopped with the .30g bb's too since all I had were .28's before and they were slightly over hopping with the hop adjusted to the off position. 380~ fps with .20's Flat trajectory now with the .30's, max effective engagement distance of 210', bb's were dropping to the ground at 225'-230' Once again, crazy. I don't plan on using a long gun ever again :P

NEXT THOUGHT

Now one thing I did notice now that I've got the r-hop in both my mp5's is that the barrel inner diameter on the cheap CA sportline mp5k is very large. I don't have a means to measure it but dropping a bb into it and looking at how much light is around the bb to the inner bore of the barrel is substantially more than the barrel from the G&G sd6. I believe the sd6 has a 6.03 or 6.04 factory tight bore. Now the sd6 shoots fairly accurately, even out at 200' I dont need more than a volley of 3 bb's to get reliable hits.

BUT now that the mp5k is r-hopped I noticed it was much more consistent with its shot to shot accuracy and exact range each bb flew to at its maximum distance.

Im seriously starting to lean towards the whole Bigger = Better when it comes to inner barrel diameter and upgraded hopups including the r-hop. Orga Magnus. They are onto something! And let me tell you, the inside of the mp5k barrel is disgusting, it looks like someone reamed the end out with a drill, there are dents that are visible on the inside, and I swear someone cleaned it with a wire brush. And still, Im getting excellent accuracy and consistency out of it. Why? Im thinking its all because of the wide bore. The bb is barely in contact with the barrel on its way out. Im getting the complete potential of the r-hop, because the bb isn't contacting the inside of the barrel much at all to deviate it from its perfect spin applied by the hop. The most interesting part is that the mp5k is shooting a solid 80 fps less than the sd6, yet my max effective engagement distance is only 25-30' more with the hotter gun...

Now if the Orga barrels weren't $100 + shipping, I would gladly swap one in my sd6 to test the theory. But I'd rather save that kinda of scratch for other things. So someone please send me a stock TM, or CA inner! ;) Im sure they have to be in the 6.08~ inner diameter ball park.

When I get my hands on one, you can be assured that I will hit the range and test it out.

The reason it's better is because the imperfections on the barrel wall have less effect on the BB when they're further away. The air cushion reduces inaccuracy due to fouling or shitty barrel lol
There's no reason to get a 6.23 over a 6.13 though. The 6.23 is just ridiculous.
Like I keep saying, once the BB is stabilized, it's stabilized, and no amount of longer barrel, tighter OR wider bore, or extra smooth barrel quality will ever make it any more stabilized.

Gamed my SD6 today, it was about 0 degrees here today and snowing like a bitch. Although it was a great time in the tree's.

Anyways, I got some amazing long distance kills today with my smg :)

Crazy range, and crazy punching power through the dead brush with .30's

Very Happy R-hop user here. Just install one already.
Thats about all the input I have for this thread. Play hard!

I know nothing about r-hop..but it's intrigued me. Would this work on GBBP's =P having a ridiculously accurate pistol is appealing. I assume r-hop would work better on guns that are more consistent ie. aeg's and polarstars.

Its not that more consistent guns work better with rhops, its that more consistent guns just work better lol

So far it doesnt offer huge gains over high quality hop rubbers but its still an upgrade.
Yes it does work on gbbp's and ill be experimenting on it this winter

please do. I'm using RA-tech's A+ hop up rubber and it's decent but I'm still not getting a neutral hop..im curious as to how an RHop would perform

Hm. What BB weight are you using and what kind of range/accuracy?
Pistols are the most difficult gun to get good accuracy with since it requires so much practice and muscle memory.

My KSC (non system 7) with it's heavily worn out rubber gets a good 160ft or so with .32s, but the accuracy leaves something to be desired. Luckily all my kills tend to be within 20ft lol
Problems that may arise with the pistol, obviously there's risk of the patch detaching from the barrel, but I have measures to prevent that from happening. But mostly worried about the BB rolling through, or partly rolling through the patch when it's loaded.
The friction of the hop is the same, but over a longer range, so the BB might get pushed halfway through the R-hop patch when it's loaded. Similar to how a BB may roll through the hop if you have the hop turned off....

Either way it's too difficult to get a replacement rubber for a non-S7, so it's a good test bed now!

It's a WE F226. with a RA-tech 6.01 tightbore with the Ra-tech hop up rubber. I get decent accuracy at 50ft, usually within a couple inches of each other. It just bothers me that even with it cranked all the way to get the bb to curve up, I'm not getting any neutral hop