Ares G36v: a word of caution
 

Don't know if this is the proper place to post this, but here goes anyway...

I recently (about 2 months ago) bought an Ares g36v from Toronto Airsoft to augment the rest of my H&K collection; it arrived quickly, it tested fine, and I set it aside while I waited for my IdZ stock/rail and some NCstar optics to show up.
Fast forward to July: the stock and other goodies are installed and I go to the field to show off and try out the new toy. Imagine my surprize when the gun breaks after firing only 30 BB's or so while sighting the scope/red dot. I have not opened up the gun yet, so I don't know for certain what is broken, but I am pretty sure the piston/sector gear stripped....whatever the problem is, its major.
I am posting this to remind anyone who buys an Ares gun (or any airsoft gun, for that matter) to test it VERY thoroughly when you first get it! I only fired 100 BB's or so when I tested mine, if I had bothered to rattle off an entire high cap I could have saved myself a pile of work and money, since the gun is now off warranty and I am stuck doing the repairs myself.
Common sense abondoned me that day, don't let it happen to you ;)

were you adjusting the hop-up and if so did you keep the charging handle locked back?

Nope, just sighting the scope and pulling the trigger. All of a sudden it just started making a whirring sound, like the motor/geartrain was spinning without any load on it. There was no snap, bang, or grinding like you would expect with a catastrophic failure, it just stopped shooting BB's...although they DID start rolling/drippling out the barrel :) Based on that, I assumed the piston stripped, but the tappet plate was intact. I intend to take it apart this weekend, and share my findings.

I assume you're trying to diagnose if their horribly designed, inefficient, damaging blowback system is to blame? Which it probably is.

mmaaayyyybbeeee.... i do know you destroy the internals if you keep the charging handle back while firing ( disables anti-reversal i think)

I agree that the blowback system leaves a little to be desired, but that was not the problem in this case. Ironically, the blowback (the piece that connects the piston to the charging handle) is actually built pretty solid, and still works just fine....go figure.

The issue with the Blowback system, is it puts extra resistance on the piston/gears, and thus causes a lot of issues with stripping teeth.

I disabled my Blowback system a while ago on my Ares G36, and even then I've had several issues.

My friends have a saying: "If you buy an Ares, you're gonna have a bad time."

I love the gun, but it is definitely low on the reliability scale.

lol, I 've heard that saying applied to just about every brand out there; and not just airsoft....Ford vs. Chevy arguement anyone?

Anyway, I finally got a chance to open up the gearbox on my Ares, and this is exactly what I found, I did not move anything, not even the broken bits...

http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3f709c50.jpg

So it looks like the piston is indeed stripped....

http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4e88a1ad.jpg

A closer look shows where the piston broke, right on the very last tooth.

http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/...ps313180df.jpg

There are little stress risers/fractures all around the broken area, so I am inclined to think this was a factory defect, as the area has obviously been flexing/shearing for some time (probably from the very first shot). While I was planning on upgrading the thing anyway, I would have expected a brand new gun to last longer than 100 or so shots! The sucky part is, having just drained the "toy funds" on some emergency car repairs, this gun will probably not see any use this summer; or at least not until the funds are built up again.
So there you go, lesson learned. Test your new toys (especially the overseas ones) VERY thoroughly while they are still under warrenty ;)

Forge out.

Are you sure this is really a unmodified brand new Ares G36CV? Did you buy it in a store, or by a "friend"?

All out-of-the-box Ares G36 guns I've seen (and S&T/Umarex clones) use clear plastic pistons and piston heads, plain grey shrinkwraped motors with soldered contacs, and typical white Tamiya connectors, not those yellow ones. Also, the gears look mismatched, each one from a different origin.

Ares does have QC issues, but this looks like a bad tech job made with second hand parts taken from ACM guns...

:-|

failure due to unadjusted AoE and a plastic piston with plastic teeth.

Looks exactly like my friend's G36C, which he bought a year ago brand new from a retailer.

It happens with a lot of new guns, stock pistons are seldom known for reliability.

You should just disable the blowback (remove the slider at the top of the mechbox) and install a TM stock piston or Modify Ultra speed (the white ones).

AOE won't make a piston explode like that. No one cared for AOE a few years ago, and it does not change that much in AEGs. All it will cause is premature wear on the piston (say after 20k shots instead of 50k) on normal setups. Materials quality is a lot more important in the cause of failure.

Maybe it was the same retailer? Do retailers in Canada modify gun internals before selling them to customers? Not just spring changes in ACM guns for lower fps or something, but a full electrical system overhaul.

I say this because the photo above shows a XT60 yellow connector instead of the standard white Tamiya mini featured in almost all factory AEGs. This looks clearly modified from stock.

@forge, can you post a photo of the box, and the body receiver markings?

No, most of the time not.
But if it was a combo with a LiPo battery, it is possible that the retailer did change the connectors to XT ones, since most small LiPo now ship with XT60.

Other than that, the wires all look factory, and the internals and motor are identical to the ones in my friend's G36C.

the only connectors that come with ares guns afaik are tamiya.... they don't use deans or xt60s. unless the vendor rewired it, but they generally don't do that unless requested.

xt60s are a common connector used in R/C applications, gaining a bit more popularity than deans.


What brand/make is the battery you got with the gun?

Just a plain old piston failure. It happens.
Reminds me of the classic army guns that a few people here think so highly of, they'd either last 3 years, 3 games, or broken in box lol

Hey, kinda like G&P!

:D

That's what I was thinking, I worked a lot of Ares G36 series and I don't remember that piston was in that colour.

Yep. Them too. Darn fragile gears and bearings lol
And them PTWs too, bad motors.

More input from the masses...awesome :)

Yes, the gun was completely bone-stock; minus the xt60 connector. I soldered that in myself right after receiving the gun. I had to, in order to test it, as all my batteries are wired to xt60's. Other than that, nothing was touched.
I bought the gun from Toronto Airsoft in June; and used a Tenergy 7.4 LiPo both for the initial test, and in the field when it failed. While I do not have a picture handy of the box or the receiver, I can certainly take/post some if someone is still interested?
I think that answers all the questions....thanks for the feedback guys :cool:

naa.. pistons fail... sort of a matter of life for a polymer toothed piston, some folks even with corrected AOE can wreck a plastic piston like that... change it out and move on.. it's a 10$ part.

I agree lurkingknight; it was just the luck of the draw, and I happened to get the one with a bad piston. Kind of like the shopping cart with one buggered wheel...leave it to me to find the lemon in the pile :)
As soon as the cash flow actually starts to flow again, I plan to swap in a Lonex piston, hop-up, shims, and maybe even a few other bits: THAT should keep it going for awhile.

The spring that comes in is too powerful for the the stock gun. They put a powerfull spring (I don't have the grade here, but it makes the gun shoot well 400-415 fps), so the gun can pass customs when it gets imported. People should put the other spring that comes in, which is the spring that normally goes in the gun rpior import) when they receive the gun, and then get a slightly powerfull one if you want to upgrade.

Happened twice to my friends G36KV; twice the piston broke at the same place, like yours. We thought it was the blow back system for the first time. We then changed the spring with a lower one at the second fail, a M120 if i recall, so the gun shoots about 380-90 fps and it's just fine. Never broke since then.

My two cents advice here.

Just curious, is there any electrical blow back system that don't suck? How about the Tokyo Marui next gen?

Jayernie, are you saying that your friend's gun came with TWO springs? Mine certainly did not, but it would have been a nice option to have. I never considered that the stock spring might be to beefy for the stock gearbox....interesting.
Unfortunately, the gun failed before I had a chance to chrono it, so I have no baseline for comparison. I think I will install the stock spring, chrono it, and if it's firing at some stupid-fast FPS then I will swap in a m110 or m120 spring and take it from there :)

Ya Forge, but unfortunately, since it's ''aftermarket'' work, sometimes, the spring might just not be there...It's a luck of the deal I guess. Not like the UAR where it is actually advertised that it comes with 2 springs in the package.

Hope it helped

I will say I bought a classic army m24 from Tornto Airsoft. I got a used gun. Or in the very least one that someone stroked all day long....yeah yeah yeah. The bolt handle was actually separating from the cylinder it had been used so much. Won't give that shop another dime.

I'm just going to come in and comment on this. I have a client gun on my bench a tan ares g36c with KV stock. The piston is the exact same color. The gearbox was previously unopened, I broke the seal, so that piston was factory installed. No bearing in it either.

It may depend where you got the G36. The S&T G36 I worked on had a piston that colour, then again most of the China guns of worked on had a piston that looked more or less like that. I know some retailers *cough* TA *cough* are/were selling Ares G36s but are actually shipping out S&T G36s. Check if you have S&T stamped on your gearset.

G&G Toptech guns, it's pneumatic and has no effect on the gun's cycle.

S&T is an OEM for ARES, so the guns are S&T/ARES. They're not lying to you. I have S&T/ARES G36C's instock as well.

All the Ares I've seen has XYZ gearsets inside. never have I worked on a customer's gun and found S&T gearsets inside.

the only S&T G36 gearbox I worked on had S&T stamped on the gearset

They're probably made in the same factory, but there is a distinct difference in quality between S&T and Ares. The S&T is made of obviously shittier material, you don't even have to open the gearbox to see. There is also a notable price difference when retailers carry both. AirsoftMegaStore sells the Ares for almost twice as much as the S&T.

Also what GBBR said, the one I worked on had S&T stamped on the gearset. So yes, TA did lie to my friend who bought it.

The G36 EBB with collapsible stock ("V") are not made by Ares.

For reference:

STAR G36 - TM clone. H&K and "STAR AIRSOFT" markings. Gearbox with quick change spring and microswitch.
ARES G36 - Same as above, but with 3 steel body pins instead of screws. H&K, but no "STAR AIRSOFT" markings.
ARES G36 EBB (early)- All new real steel style body, barrel and stock disassembly. Electric blowback. H&K markings.
ARES G36 EBB (current)- Same as above. Ventilated pistol grip plate base. No H&K markings.

UMAREX G36 EBB (early) - Rebranded ARES G36 EBB with H&K markings.
UMAREX G36V EBB (early) - S&T clone of ARES G36 EBB design with collapsible stock, and laser H&K markings.
UMAREX G36V EBB (current) - Same as above, with engraved H&K markings.
UMAREX G36C (Sportline) - S&T, same design with no EBB or collapsible stock. Made of ABS plastic.
UMAREX G36C, G36K GBBR - Made by VFC. Perfect copy of real steel G36 body and parts. Not a clone or compatible with other airsoft G36.

WE G39C GBBR - Clone of ARES G36 EBB body externals with WE GBBR internals.

WTF? Just no.

Also, the STAR G36s didn't use microswitches. They used regular V3 trigger components, but the top pin that holds it in place is a bit lower than normal, so you need to enlarge the little hole to install aftermarket triggers. It's when ARES ditched STAR and branded their own rifles that they started using microswitches (and they should have stayed with normal stuff).

I always thought s&t was arer's sportline brand

Maybe very early STAR guns used standard gearboxes, I don't know. But in all the old reviews of STAR guns still on the Internet, and the guns I've seen first hand myself (SL9, SL8, M4A1, G36C, L85A2), their gearboxes came with quick change spring guides and microswitchs. Note that there is another unrelated company called "Star": Star Rainbow Company, AKA "SRC".

Yes, WE's G39C are external clones of ARES EBB. Of course they are not identical, there are internal changes for the GBB parts. But if you look closely at the externals, there are several details totally unique to STAR/ARES/S&T G36Cs shared by WE (and not others like TM, CA, SRC, KWA...):

*UMP "notch and hole" type rear sight (should be G36C 2 hole type). STAR made the UMP before the G36C, and they just recycled the part.
*UMP type 4 bullets in auto fire pictogram ( should be 5 in G36s). Same as above.
*Concave stock rubber end pad ( should be rounded in shorter G36C type stock). STAR made the full size G36 before the G36C, and they just recycled the part.
*Incorrect and unique side rails (should be... different)
*Oval stock hinge ( should be round ). With the new ARES EBB body, the stock hinge is shaped in a way that makes airsoft stocks not compatible with real G36s.
*Exposed barrel trunnion. In a real G36 (or the VFC 36 GBB) this is covered, and a special tool is necessary to dissamble the barrel. Airsoft G36 have this part exposed for more battery space.

It's plain clear that WE copied the ARES EBB body and modified it. It's not a copy of TM style externals or real G36s (Only the Umarex/VFC G36C is)

That piston is probably from the latest g36 from ares; early version of g36 had a way better one than later production.

Wow, lots of great information for the masses being posted here :)

For the record, my gun had intact seals, and did not in any way appear to be futzed around with. While I am disappointed in how TA chose to handle the failure, as a business I respect their decision. Up to this point, I have never had any trouble with TA, even when I had to return a couple of items (both without incident). I file this whole thing under "dumb on my part" and have moved on... (granted, SOME form of "gesture in kind" from TA would have been appreciated).

Now that THAT's out of the way... the gears have no stamps/markings on them, the gearbox seals were intact, and overall the gearbox was nicely (but not perfectly) assembled/shimmed. I don't think anything was built or put together poorly except for the piston, which I think suffered from a casting defect or similar flaw.
The gun is now back together, having had a Lonex piston, hop up, and shim set installed; and is now in the final stages of tuning :) Anyone have some experience with a Lonex hop up in an Ares G36? This thing is a bit of a b**ch to install/tune...

As always, thanks for the feedback guys and gals.

No, but I have a ProWin that fits perfectly.

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/...z/photo1-2.jpg


Isn't the Lonex one similar?

installed a lonex hop into someone's ares just a couple weeks ago.. it is a bitch to tune. As are most hop up units for g36s it seems. Air seal on it is an issue, as well as feeding after I addressed the air seal issue. Haven't gotten the gun back to tweak the feeding or to try another hopup unit I have laying around. owner hamfisted the original back in and broke it, as well as a replacement unit that's when he called me lol.

I am having multiple issues with the Lonex hop up unit: double-feeding (particularly on semi-auto), jams, and poor to very poor airseal. The problem seems to stem from a couple of differences in how the Lonex hop up is constructed:

first, take a look at the difference in flange thickness between the two ("A" is Ares, "L" is Lonex)
[IMG]http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/...ps987981cf.jpg[/IMG]

While that tiny little bit may not seem like much, it is enough to make it IMPOSSIBLE to install the Lonex hop up without altering the hop up spring length: I used the old trusty Dremel, and cut the spring down by about 3mm.

Second, the flanges are a bit to wide, and require filing to fit properly (quick fix). The metal alloy Lonex uses for the hop up is surprizing hard!

[IMG]http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/...psd4b6739f.jpg[/IMG]

Third, the Lonex body is noticably thicker than the Ares. Normally a good thing, this extra material actually seems to result in the magwell not seating properly:

http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/...pscfe147cd.jpg

This is how the magwell seats on the OEM Ares hop up...

[IMG]http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/...psdf74f42f.jpg[/IMG]

...and this is how it seats on the Lonex

http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/...psbcf31e3a.jpg

Notice the difference in the gap between the top of the hop up and the magwell? While the Ares is almost spherical, the Lonex is decidedly oval. I am not certain, but I strongly suspect that because of the extra thickness of the Lonex hop up, the magwell is pushing "up" slightly on the hop up, and slightly springing the inner barrel. If that is the case, it would help explain why the Lonex hop is so hard to tune!

Fourth, once assembled you can see a very large difference in how a BB sits in between the nozzle and the hop up. If you look at the following photos, you can see that while the Ares holds a BB almost perfectly, the Lonex has enough space for a BB and a half! I figure that extra space is the main reason I get consistent double-feeding.

[IMG]http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/...ps01c7f22d.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/...psdbd0e4a7.jpg[/IMG]

So, suffice it to say, I am re-installing the Ares hop up until such time as it breaks, or I find a 100% compatible replacement. I think with a little light machining, the Lonex could be made to fit and work well, I just don't have the time to fiddle with it. So, as far as I am concerned, the Lonex hop up unit is NOT compatible with an Ares G36.

Could have told you that before your ordered, but didn't catch it.

I ordred the opposite, a replacement ARES hop-up chamber to fit in a SRC G36 (TM compatible-ish). Other than the feed tube issue/fitting, it did not fit properly in the outbarrel section.

I have yet to break an ARES hop-up unit, so I am not sure why you would want to replace it.

I did break a CA, TM and SRC unit, and installed a Prowin, TM and "Matrix" as replacements.

I tried fitting the lonex to my CA.. didn't fit.. despite being the same design, the measurements are different.

I filed a bit of the back off.. filed some of the prongs to make it sit back farther... it did not seal at all... 130 fps is about as much as I could get.

I gave up.. .client came to me with broken hopup on his ares, and the ares unit is out of stock currently, so I tried fitting my adjusted lonex into his ares... it seals reasonably well.. adjusted a bit more, but it's having issues feeding, I think more to do with mags being loose in the magwell.

So at this point we're at a bit of an impass, either start modifying his magwell or wait for the ares unit to come back into stock.

I haven't tested the Lonex hop up, but judging by your photos, it looks terrible. Prowin and 5kU hops works well without mods in some TM clones (ARES, CA), but it can be problematic in others (SRC, JG).

I think this is the solution for your woes, the Wii Tech Hop for the ARES/S&T G36 EBB and their clones:

http://www.wiitech.com.hk/eshop/prod...roducts_id=433

I haven't tried it myself, so caveat emptor :)

I've not had any luck with prowin in a CA either... it gets temperamental sometimes it feeds, sometimes it doesn't.

Well, even after re-installing the OEM Ares hop up, bucking, and related bits...the damn thing STILL won't shoot consistantly; or with much power for that matter (chronos at 230-250).
I seem to have got a real lemon here.... the saga continues, lol.

I have a lonex unit in my ca, all I had to do was file down the prongs on the sides a bit. No air seal problems whatsoever

I have two lonex g36 hop up chamber in both my ares g36s and they work flawlessly. With one of my ares g36, I did have the same problem like yours, it was double feeding.

If you look at your photos and compare the Ares OEM hop up chamber to the lonex, you can see that there is a slight gap between the gearbox and the lonex hop up. Where as the original ares hop up chamber has no gap and sits flush against the gear box.

To fix this you can add a spacer/o-ring around the front of the inner barrel stabilizer thing (part #F91) (it is the big fat metal piece you stick your hop up and spring into and lock down using a grub screw).

Doing so will set your hop up unit back a little bit and make it flush against your gearbox. This fixed the air seal and feeding issue with mine. I hope this works for you also.

Hmmm, thanks Whoablah, that sounds like a logical step to take since most of the issues with the Lonex seemed to stem from that large gap in the hop up chamber: a gap which might be fixed with your suggestion.
However, I am a little unclear about this "part #F91: could you post a pic just so I am certain which part you are talking about?
How about the large oval shaped gap between the feeding tube and the hop up? Did THAT ever give you any problems?

To be honest with you, I never checked that oval gap lol. the first thing I noticed was the gap between the gearbox and hop up chamber when installing the Lonex Hop up Chamber and I just adjusted it so it was flush to the gear box and it started feeding flawlessly. lol.

http://www.aresairsoft.com/for%20web...xpose_plan.jpg

If you look at the link I attached above, it will show you the part #F91.

Thanks for the link Whoablah, I have been looking for an Ares g36 exploded view for awhile now :)
Unfortunately, I have the G36V, not the C...I don't know if there are any significant differences between the two or not? I will have a closer look later next week and see if I can locate that part F91.

Thanks again for the link, and the suggestion!

the only difference should be the fake gas piston and length of the outer barrel assembly.

no problem, like what lurkingknight said, aside from the externals, everything internally should be the exact same for the g36c & g36v minus the inner barrel length.

Yup, you guys are right: the internals are the same :) That F91 part is just hard to see, so I overlooked it on my first inspection.
I still have not found the time to reinstall the Lonex parts, but I will attempt it later this week. I have to do something, because this damn thing is STILL not firing correctly. The BBs fly anywhere but straight, and it still has a double-feed problem (although it is no where near as bad as before). The range is poor as well...my KWA g36c easily beats it for distance and accuracy.
Lesson learned: stick with KWA! Lol

Ares G36C and 36 variants
 

One thing that's commonly know but maybe not commonly shared is that the HOD button, the bolt lock-back Holding Open Device also acts as the anti-reversal latch release which of course takes the strain off the spring when it's time to store it. I didn't read ALL of the replies in this thread so don't hate if i missed a previously written comment about this issue.

Locking back the charging handle with this hod, located forward of the trigger guard AND firing the gun...just a bad idea. Those in the know disconnect this bar off the gearbox and simply resort to clearing the gun and cyling the gearbox with a few pulls of the trigger in a safe direction after or between game areas.

Hope this helps someone in the future.

ps:those stock Ares buckings, swap them out. They're made from Gummy Bears:rolleyes: