What kind of Airsofter are you?
 

Hello fellow airsofters!

I'm helping some friends out who are trying to start an indoor airsoft facility in Vancouver. Please help by filling this 10-question multiple choice survey! Who knows, maybe if the feedback is good, you will see next airsoft site built the way YOU like it. By submitting feedback, you may even help improve local airsoft sites, even if you are not in Vancouver.

Keep in mind that this is aimed towards the Canadian crowd, so please use existing Canadian indoor sites for comparison when answering these questions.

http://fluidsurveys.com/surveys/ah-kxb/indoor-airsoft/

Thank you!

Done. I should qualify my answer on indoor facilities. In Calgary we do not currently have an indoor facility. We did up until late spring and when it was open I was out weekly. I like outdoor just as much but will not attend paintball sites so that cuts down on my participation. Good luck with your project.

hope my entry helps.

I filled it out. :)
Out of curiosity, why did you choose 330FPS as an option instead of 350? In southern Ontario, 350FPS seems to be the standard for indoors, and from what I've seen in other posts, other indoor places are the same way. Was it based on Japanese limits?

xtreme tactics in winnipeg by all means could be 300fps and nobody would complain
Honestly the indoor fps should be based on average engagement range, which at XT is most typically 5 feet

Thanks for your input!

No particular reason really. He said he wanted to see how many people would prefer to "man up" and take a field gun straight into CQB.

330 fps with .20 happens to be the limit for the local indoor games. It also translates to about 1.0 J, which agrees with this:

http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/06-a-01.htm

I think I can relate... I hate getting paint all over my gear.

We used to play indoor private games with wolfpack MB, "terror tuesdays" officially 400fps limit, but I know for a fact some of their guns were 500+ lol
Nobody had any complaints anyway, but I definitely wouldn't allow outsiders in on the games.

Also, safety? cleanliness of facility? LOL
The most dangerous fields are often the best! CFB rivers was ridiculously dangerous but one of the best fields for CQB. Real CQB too, building to building, with REAL buildings, none of this indoor maze crap.

one of the most important elements for indoor facilities is the ability to change the set up regularly... meaning WEEKLY

the most common complaint with regulars is " boredom" if you can not build a solid core of regular players .. you are doomed.

you keep people coming back with new setups and novel scenarios.

I've been running an indoor facility since 2005 .. and the only reason I am still around is that the setup is never the same twice.

Just out of curiosity..CFB Rivers, is that an actual CFB base? The reason I ask is I'm located at CFB Gagetown and would like to know if we could use their CQB facilities to play

Abandoned ww2 base bought and semi converted to a hog plant. Owner died of being a retard, so we have no idea who to contact.
Despite complying to wh&s safety standards for his workers, he got up on a roof with no safety equipment, fell off and died.

Deep.

Good to know. I will pass that on. The people behind this are going to keep the covers "modular" so that it can be easily adapted and changed.

Very important for an indoor field, size and multi-level. Unless it's a couple if buddies just muckin' around, 10,000 square feet starts to feel like a garage quickly.

Also what Brian said, change it regularly.

Rivers was deactivated at the start of the 70s.

I don't agree.. Size is not everything.. Creativity can make up for size.

But you do need enough space so that people are not falling over one another

I run TTAC3 in 4000 square feet.. but usually run no more than 16-20 people.

16 - 20 people in 4,000 square feet? Holy smokes! You must be great at space creativity. We had 8 - 10 or so close friends, in 10,000 square feet, and although it was interesting in there with all the buildings, structures, etc, I'd still call it busy.

We played with the lights off, a few red and blue strobes going, smoke, and had heavy metal just racked over the speaker system. It was challenging, and fun for what it was.

That's what you were missing last week, Bryan! There was no fog! Heavy metal would have been nice too, but it would have taken away from the mood. :P

TTAC3 is indeed very small, but that's why I love it. However, it has a very unique way of being set up, with walls and obstacles. I'm pretty sure I've got pictures on my phone I can dig up.

The corridors are usually very short. Engagement distances are very close. You can barely turn a corner without getting shot at.
But when you manage to fight your way up to the next bit of corner 5 feet in front of you, it feels good. When you manage to flank the enemy, you feel accomplished. When you get shot point blank in the hand because you stuck your pistol a few inches past cover, you feel considerable pain.

It's never boring, you're always moving, and it really encourages you to work as a team if you want to gain any ground. And that's fun to me.

I play at another, larger, indoor field, but it's set up differently than TTAC3. There's only a handful of obstacles, the corridors for movement are long, and there isn't a whole lot of cover. When you start getting 20+ players, I find that I do a lot of hanging back, because all the cover that's within an effective engagement range is taken.

Granted, that's a specific playing style too. If I can't "move up a long corridor without getting shot" then I should try find another way around. If there's not enough cover up at the front, I should get more aggressive and make due.

But, it doesn't encourage me to move, and it doesn't encourage me to fight. At TTAC3, even though I might only move up a few feet to the next bit of cover, at least I'm moving. At least I'm constantly fighting, instead of standing around for a few minutes, waiting for cover to open up.

So basically what I'm saying, is that I have a ton of fun in the small field of TTAC3. There's always plenty of cover, lots of movement required, and very rarely any bunch-ups of players behind one particular cover (unless you're stacking up to move around a corner or something). It's not for everybody, and it really makes it seem more like a simulation or a drill, than a game. TTAC3 is just flat walls and corners all around you. It forces you to keep moving and fighting, or else you get run over.

The other field I mentioned has buildings you can enter; multiple levels; vehicles, barrels, and other obstacles; open spaces to run across...That all makes it seem more like a game, and it's what a lot of people prefer. It's got variety, it's a more "realistic" urban setting, and so on. There's nothing wrong with it, but I honestly get more fun out of Bryan's tiny little space.

isnt that only for richmond indoor paintball? tbh u can change the limit to what you see fit, 350 seems to be better imo but thats entirely up to you as the owner of the field and whatnot. hope to see it soon!!!


also in terms of space u should check out the cqb sites in HK they have pretty good use of space and whatnot. im sure u can find pictures on google and their websites :)

I'm working on that.. had a high output fog machine.. but it crapped out.. need to get a new one.

But you hit all the points with respect to what we are trying to do at TTAC3,

it is much more of a training environment than a "skirmish arena"

Short focused engagements, Fast turn around to scenarios.

all in a space that puts everyone within range of everyone else.

The best CQB space needs to be small enough that no one is out of range from any spot on the field. This forces people to use cover effectively.

CQB paintball is an excellent setup.. but it is static.. When it first opened the outdoor space we had a great time there for 5 or 6 sessions.. but by then it was all played out. Everyone knew all the choke points and angles.. and every game turned out the same..

You are probably right about the fps limit. Perhaps the question wasn't phrased the best way. It was more of a "do you prefer higher or lower fps" question.

If I had it may way, I would pick 400 fps with no MED. :D

NO MED is critical for CQB .. otherwise it ends up being a game of "mercy tag"

the reason for higher FPS is moot for indoor play.. there is no wind.. there are no bushes or grass to blast through.

at 400 fps.. you will have a lot of blood .. and not to put too fine a point on it.. there are lots of players who don't like the idea of bleeders let alone the reality.

280- 320 with .20 bbs is perfect for indoor play where very short engagements will happen. even at this FPS.. you still get bleeders

300-sub-350 is more than sufficient for indoor play. Still pretty ouchy at contact-5ft but enough so a longer shot can still be felt/heard.

Setting things to semi-only, ammo limits per mag and no minimum engagement distance really help to both keep things moving along and to head off guys spraying rounds endlessly from static positions. Same with total ammo limits if you've got more space to play with.

Those types of conditions may not appeal to everyone, but give them a try and assess what effect it has on game play.

Floor surface also makes a big impact. BB's on hard flat surfaces make for wicked wipeouts (mandate boots with good treads)...gravel makes for bad slides and road rash...sand gets into everything...dirt (outdoors) turn into mud and icy mud in the winter. Brian's place is kind of lucky in that the cracks in the floor boards is a natural sump for BBs...and even then by the end of some nights it's a virtual carpet of BBs, especially with grenades and 40mm's

Basically figure everything is going to get shot eventually...lights/windows/signage/etc... Can't beat hard cover vs. netting/etc...

Also, helmets, goggles, neck guards, gloves, masks, etc. As far as adults go, it's pretty much "at your own risk" as long as they understand the dangers, but having protective gear available is good. With proper protective gear, you can mitigate the need for lower FPS, within reason of course.

This is a great thread (I did the survey) as I have been thinking/dreaming alot about how great it'd be to open up an Indoor Airsoft place North of the GTA. Someplace in between the GTA and Barrie area where Airsofters from those 2 areas can still make their way to the location and all the smaller communities inbetween can aswell.

I currently drive over an hour to get to Ultimate (when I can get out) and have been looking into TTAC aswell.

I agree that changing up the enviroment would make things better. More marshalling/supervision I believe is required.

I just keep watching the Scoutisthedoogie videos and drooling on myself.

Thank you to everyone who participated. The number of responses is quite impressive!

I might be sharing the findings later on once I think I have received a good number of responses, but so far I'm seeing that almost half of the players like outdoor better and the other half is nearly neutral between indoor and outdoor.

So for those who doesn't prefer one over the other, what is the deciding factor? Weather? Or is it just undecided because you like to change up the environment and play style once in a while?

I like to play indoor because I am often to busy to play during the weekend and indoor facility offer evening sessions. Weather can be a deciding factor. If it is heavy rain/wind in the forecast, I rather stay home.

Many of us will always prefer playing outside because of the terrain, the size of the field, fresh air and the realism. But that doesn't we mean won't go to an indoor place. You and your crew need to figure out a reason why airsofters want to pay money to go to your place. It is all about marketing and giving people what they want. You are selling an experience and memory. You want people to come back again and again. Given the size of Vancouver and the established airsoft facilities, you need to offer something that is not offer by other places.

Also Location would be a big factor for the people in Vancouver. Where is the location that you guys are thinking about??

I would say another good thing to invest would be good ventilation indoors so the air is constantly moving.

Helps prevent fog, stink, stale air :D

You have some very valid points.

I cannot disclose the location at this time. I don't want to get everyone's hopes up. There's still a lot of work ahead.



Another good point. I hate fog! Noted!

One of the important things you mention ia FPS. in a CQB enviorment it really is to nill advantage. In something like TTAC the engagement distance would be so small that 300-400fps wouldnt be an advantage. It's more about injury prevention and sportsmenship.

FPS limits indoors can be touchy. I advocate a hard stop at 350fps for a few reasons.

1- Most CQB- length AEGs without extensive mods (I'm talking a spring swap downwards with some light compression work) end up shooting 310-340fps. After the springs break in, they may 'lose' a shade more. Getting up to to the magical "I want my gun to shoot the limit!!#%^" 345-355fps range takes a wasted-effort amount of fuckery, or starting with an over-powered spring (like a 110), and leaving an intentional leak somewhere, which has obvious downsides along with marking the user as a bit of a jackass.
A 350fps limit is mostly there to allow for some wiggle-room for people whose brand-new guns haven't relaxed yet, and to limit the damage that an adjustable gas gun user with anger problems can do.
Most green gas (propane) guns fall somewhere between 290 and 330fps.

2- Most people who play regularly don't use full-auto, because it is wasteful, unnecessary, and furthermore sucks to receive. Use and/ or misuse of fire modes is a pretty reliable gauge of a player's time in the sport, or relative level of maturity/ empathy and so can be instantly forgiven, tolerated, or ruthlessly grumbled about based on an individual's experience and character.

3- Judging and using an adequate level of safety gear is 101% the responsibility of the individual. I don't like it when people bleed all over my gym's walls, but I know from experience that the carload of shit the guy in the t-shirt will get from his girlfriend is far worse than the infections tissue impact trauma can bring (seriously, we're launching plastic orbs at high speed into each other's bodies. All kinds of people touch them with their disgusting human hands, and every surface is covered in sweat and sweat residue. Wear some goddamn sleeves).

4- The saddest reason: Player ethics. I can't support any less than a 350fps cap because my extensive use of spring shotguns (which clock in at a TM-type average 280-290) that unless you are hunting faces, hands, and kidneys, ~40% of your hits will not be called. They are simply too light at longer ranges to make enough impact on layered clothing or noise on gear to be called reliably.
It's rarely the opposing player's fault. I've seen Veteran players fail to hear and acknowledge gear hits under 300fps, and those same players are ones I can count on to call 99.99% of the time.
Guns in that range may be fine outside, but indoor places are noisy and the sound scape is disorienting, especially if there is music or white noise playing in the background.
Newer players don't know how to listen for hits yet, and experienced players who have switched to a new LBE platform don't know what their gear sounds like yet.
310/ 20fps+ makes a good, audible *THWAP* on textiles and a *GISH* on walls, with the added benefit of "Don't you fucking tell me you didn't feel that, I will shoot your ass exclusively now" factor.

5- BBs traveling under 300fps travel 100ft very slowly.

6- It's a limit, not a goal.
All of these factors are pretty much summed up here.
Under 350, danger is present but can be pretty easily controlled. Over 350, things get dicey real fast. Remember, any fps limit will be fairly arbitrary, as standard mods and upgrades (with the exception of regulated gas systems) fall somewhere near the limit, never precisely at it.

What you want to do with your facility is to develop a player base who uses their equipment as tools in pursuit of a goal, whether that goal is to get exercise, shed stress, practice a martial art, or just make friends and have fun.
The gun isn't the point in and of itself, but it's ergonomics and effectiveness will greatly enhance the pursuit of an individual's goal. That's why we do this instead of Hockey or Bridge, and why track-day racers and Sunday cruisers still like to hang out and bullshit about cars.
Guys who want to mag dump at moving targets with the cool 'gun' they like from game/ movie X should be encouraged to buy some private land, some old tomatoes, and a train set.


Edit:
Goddamnit I should learn how to write something other than a wall of text. Jeezus.

Edit 2:
Given energy transfer to target as it affects both damage to players and damage to your facility, there is no reason to use anything but .20s. Also, remember to be extremely vigilant about monitoring mag loading procedures. Especially those using gas guns.
Clients should not, under any circumstances be allowed to load their own magazines outside of your direct supervision and/ or with anything other than the bbs you supply. People can not be trusted; they will abuse any gaps in your loading procedure that you allow through blind trust or negligence.
Heavy bbs will wreck your shit and start fights, cheap, crappy bbs will destroy your rentals prematurely. Your rentals will be destroyed faster than you can comprehend already, adding any circumstance within your control which may hasten that destruction will burn your capital.
On that note, if you plan on renting 20 guns at any given time, buy 80. Your rate of failure, need for swappage, and cross-cannibalization will astound you. As an example, you can expect 3-5 AEGs will die for every 45 minute bachelor party you host. If you don't have a tech (or two) on the line to work part-time from day one, you will cry. You need at least one dedicated tech to be at your business regularly to maintain your guns. Not working your retail component, not running games, just fixing things.
To you, your rentals are your business, and your business is your livelihood. To the public, they are garbage, or at best, not their problem. Remember that.

^ There are really just two ways to maintain the guns and both methods are costly and REALLY suck.

1) Use high quality parts and pay a knowledgeable and established gunsmith to fix them (of which nobody wants to do 12 guns a week lol), so essentially drop $200 (lonex is perfect balance of inexpensive and high enough quality) into each gun plus gunsmith fees. Downside is, every mechbox eventually breaks anyway, noobs can break guns and I mean in half wrecking all the parts, and all noobs continue to shoot when the guns jammed so guranteed stripped pistons.

2) use only stock parts but buy rental guns that are decent enough to be rented out. Downside is now they're stock and guaranteed to break down more often than the upgraded ones, but the parts are probably much cheaper since you probably have a dealer account.

Anyway, total agree 100% with everything above, you can't invest too much in something you know will be broken constantly and mishandled by the most inexperienced people. And you can't spend too little like buying G&G or you'll be going through metal bodies like crazy.

Those are some very valid points Cliff, I appreciate you spending the time for the awesome write-up.

As a side note, we were planning to use a muzzle energy limit, so at close range, the impact energy is pretty close no matter what weight you use. Then again, some people may try to cheat and over-volume, or lie about the bb weight.

I'm not familiar with gas guns. What do you mean by this?

Gas guns have a higher muzzle energy when people load them with heavier ammo.
A WE PDW (mine) shoots 380fps with a .20 (1.34j), but when loaded with .28s it shoots 350 fps (1.56j), which is over the OLD outdoor limit of 400fps (1.48j)

So if a GBBR chrono's on .20s at 320-350fps, then someone puts .28s in it, it will mostly likely be over the limit.
That's why I recommend every chrono's with the BB weight they'll be using as opposed to .20s

I play in Mb, only outdoors. I tried out xt and it was fun but way too pricey for what it has to offer, might go back this off season if this winter lasts too long! (I like to support local business so I try and pick up parts and supplies from them though). We've got a good group of regulars and a buds land to play on. We build our own forts, towers, etc. We have no fps limits, just common sense when engaging up close with anything high powered. Anyone want to try out a "relaxed" game style, message me for details.

It's extremely difficult to get a good balance of size and profitability from an indoor arena
A facility large enough to satisfy milsim players would cost way too much to maintain. That's why all the large facilities we play at; CFB rivers, sask hospitals, etc are generally condemned or abandoned lol

Yes. The costs associated with such a business are astronomical.