The Middle Man
 

With a string of recent Flakes on big transactions, I've been thinking.

What if a voluntary Middle Man system was set up? Here Me out;

When someone puts something up for sale, or wants to buy something, than can decide to go through a middle man. This means that the goods and the payment are both sent to a "middle" man. Once items from both sides are recieved, the middle man complete's the transaction and sends everything on its way.

So as not to confuse people, it can be a completely voluntary process. Wanna buy something, but seller doesn't have enough, or a bad trader rating, ask to go the middle man route. Same thing with selling, buyer has little or a bad trader rating, say selling only on condition of middle man.

And so as too make sure no one runs off with everyones stuff, trusted and respected memebrs of the forums could step up and offer their services for a very small fee.

Yes, it may sound like adding another unneccassary step, but seeing as it would be completely voluntary, their would be no real issue with being forced to go that route.

And as for setting up middle men, all its really needed is a person both parties can agree on, though I think it would be easier if a list was made so that New people could see who is trusted by the community.

This would also work for people who are new or have bad ratings to build up their ratings so as to become more trusted. And it would also greatly protect against scamming as nothing would really be "lost" until everything was properly accounted for by the middle man.

Just take the huge fiasco with Green Igor. If a middle man had been used, everyone would easily be able to get their stuff back at any time. Money can Easily be wired, or transfered back, and goods can just as easily be resent.

Just some food for thought.

EDIT: Could a mod possibly add a poll to this, so as to get a better grasp of peoples views?

I must admit that I'm getting really sick of the flaking that's going on as well. I've had up to 6 people in a single day say, "I'll take item X" and then PM me all of 3 or 4 hours later and say, "sorry, I don't want it anymore." That makes it really difficult for me to make any promises to other sellers about when I'll have my full payment ready for them. I think that the middle man system would be a good idea for selling higher priced items or for deals between the parties mentioned above. Some sort of process needs to be strung out though, to ensure that the middle man doesn't just keep the money and the product and make off with them both, never to be heard from again.

I read about something like this about a year ago. I personally like the idea alot. Maybe the middle man wouldn't have to be used for small purchases under $100, but an AEG would be fine.

Just my two cents.

Norbert

a much easier and simple solution- read their feedback.
I dont know why people would send someone $500+ they've never met and has 0 trader feedback, its almost a begging to be scammed.

I buy from upstanding members only, and if no one has what I need, I buy from a retailer.

simplicity

Last thing I want is for this to be seen as a mandatory measure, because honestly, with the volumne of sales that go on on these boards, no one could handle the traffic going through their house.

The middle man is just a set up for people that feel uneasy about the other party to add a level of security to the transaction. It could be for a 3500$ m249, or a 5$ pair of gloves.

All I'm really asking for is too help set up some sort of list of respectable players who would be willing to act a middle man on transactions. This way new players can go to them knowing that they have the backing of the community.

Yes, of course there's always the risk that the Middle man might up and leave with everything, but when a list is present this makes it a lot easier to stop.

The only other point I would add is a full disclouser agreement. Meaning that if, say, an AEG where being shipped with a bunch of Accesories. The Seller of the item gives permission for the middle man to look through the package upon arival to ensure everything is accounted for and then procedes from there.

EDIT: @ Nuck, I can see your concerns, but a system like this would make it a lot easier for people to feel more security regarding transactions with unproved, or suspicious individuals.

Say your selling your M60 @~2000 and the only hit you ever get is from a New Guy with a couple posts and no trader rating, you personaly may wait for someone else to come along, but if a system like this was set up I'd feel a lot safer going through with the deal knowing that a respected member of the community is holding onto the unit for me waiting on deleivery of funds.

This would dubble the shipping cost and what if the middle man says "weee a free gun came in the mail for me WooT"

I say just whatch who you buy from, if he's some newb who has no rattings then dont bother.

Feedback is not always reliable. Look at the case of Green_Igor. He had positive all around until he screwed some guys over. It happens alot.

Yes, shipping would double, but I would pay it if I want to get my $2000 M60. Those who choose to do this, do it because it is much safer.

Take care guys.

Norbert

I agree with the middle man principle, it will give the chance to build up a positive trade rating for n00bs.

It is the same conundrum with work experience, you can't get a job unless you have work experience, but you can't get work experience without a job...

This will give the opportunity for new members to get age verified, buy a gun, and not be turned down, ignored, or taking advantage of in the form of fraud, while on the other hand, protecting the seller from shaky deals.

As per shipping costs, the buyer sends the money to the TRUSTED middle-man. Someone with a spotless record and high buy/sell rating. Upon receival of money, the middle man informs the seller that the money has been received. The seller then sends out the item. Upon receival of the item to the buyer, the middleman sends the money to the seller.

As you can see, I think that seller fraud is a bit more important than flaking, but flakers can be given neutral feedback... This system will protect the buyer from seller fraud, give n00bs a chance to purchase items and not be turned down, and give sellers a reason to give neutral feedback on flakers...

I've seen this 'middle-man' system in action before on other forums. Instead of the seller scamming the person, the middle-man does it.

Even if the 'middle-man' had plenty of good feedback, whats to stop them from accepting a bunch of jobs and stealing everything?

ie. Person X wants to quit airsoft. Person X tries to steal everything they can, sells it and makes $

I think it's a great idea, how else is a new person going to get feedback if no one will buy from him? You were new once too.

Dustin

I completely understand your worries, but remember, this isn't like every other forum. Generaly most people's home addresses are known to at least one other person on this board, so running would be very hard.

AND, the Middle men would be either A) Community Selected individuals who are seen as responsible, or B) A person BOTH parties agree too.

EDIT: To elaborate on my point.

Buyer wants something from Seller. Seller see's that Buyer has a no trader rating at all, and doesn't feel comfortable doing a one to one transaction, so Seller consults a middle man list.

The Middle Man list consists of people that have volunteered to be Middle Men, and have also been vouched for en masse by the community. This would provide (hopefully) a relatively sizable list of people to choose from to work as the inbetween for the deal. BUT say that no one on the list catches the Seller and Buyers eye (as both would have to agree on the person), they can both decide on someone else.

Not just anyone can pop up and be the middle man in a random transaction, some credentials would be required.

It will work, but both parties must understand than an escrow service costs money. Furthermore, who will be the middle man?

Just in the post above yours.

Norbert

Yes, I saw that, but what qualifications does one need to become a middle man?

I volunteer to be the middle man.

I will randomly keep every 30th sale for myself to simulate problems in the buy/sell community :D

That's how much of a commitment to realism I'm willing to make.

KD

That's why you don't pick just anyone. Pick someone with a decent job, a kid, family, people who can't just pick up and flee the country at the drop of their hat with their newly aquired (and stolen) TM MP5k.

ROFL Alan :D

I've suggested this idea many times, and so have others. I always thought it was a great idea but I was shot down everytime :)

For the double-shipping issue: Maybe the middle-man should be chosen according to the location of the Buyer. That way, the Seller sends the item to the middle-man, and when money is received, the middle-man gives the item to the Buyer at the next game the Buyer and the middle-man will attend.
I know that games during winter are not as frequent as in summer, so it would be longer to get the items.

Anyway, I don't know the exact number of transactions that occurs here on ASC, but the ratio of good transaction/a la GreenIgor transactions must tend to be in the range of 0,01%. The risk of trading on a forum, as smal as it can be, is the price you pay for the money you save on this kind of deal. Aren't able to bear the risk? Pay the full price of the retailers.

Kymoz

Having traded online for almost 10 years, I'll say this. It's not always about saving a penny, for me it's more of a way to get rid of stuff I don't use anymore.

Having an escrow service for a larger trade would be usefull, since I doubt Tru is about to take trade-ins.

This isn't a bad idea, and since it would be voluntary, then if its not your style, its not a problem. The fact is, you can't run entirely off trader ratings. If a person has never bought or sold before, it doesn't make them a scammer, although anything is possible. I wouldn't have been able to purchase my AEG, or sell the couple items that I have if people ignored those who aren't involved in large amounts of transactions.

Which isn't to say don't read trader ratings. If a person has negative or even neutral transactions, take that into consideration! It means they've had less than stellar dealings in the past, don't expect yours to be different.

I like this idea too - often i've played that middle man role after the fact since I can't stand to see peoples names dragged thru the shitter like that when I know otherwise...

Being as it is only the buyer that needs "protection" (the seller would have received payment before sending anything), any additional costs (ie. shipping) should be placed on buyers shoulders.
As far as selling to newbs, I can't see the risk. They send their money first, how can you get ripped off?
With regard to building trader rating, I've had more that the one transaction, but if the person your dealing with is too lazy to give you feedback, what are you supposed to do?

But what if a newb is looking to sell something. Are you gonna send $X dollar to him before he ships out? Wouldn't you feel safer if the product was shipped to the middle man, you sent your money to him, and once he got everything he sends it their respective ways.

And then theirs the Green Igor case. He was selling, people sent their money, and nothing came. So their's risk for both sides.

I've been doing this for sometime now.

Teams mates have something to sell or trade they give it to me and I make it happen.
It works fine cause some people like me have the time to waste pm people and setting up deals.

In the case of Green_Igor it was the buyer what was at risk.... they were selling but it was still the buyers who got screwed over. The only way that a seller can get screwed over is if they agree to a payment plan (and for some reason decided to ship the item before the payments are complete) or agree that the buyer is to pay shipping charges after the fact. However, I think that the middle man idea will be fantastic for newer users who are looking at building their reputations here on ASC. All we need to do is get a list of volunteers who are willing to do it and then identify and confirm who they are and where they currently reside. (Keeping in mind that they need to be trustworthy people as well.)

Shugart, try reading what I actualy wrote.
I was only commenting on who the burden of additional cost should be placed. That and the fact that no seller at any time, under any circumstances, is at risk. They receive the money first. They have all the control. The only risk (if you can call it that) is that they may encounter a flake, and all that will result in is a little bit of wasted time.

This is kind of the idea behind the Kit exchange Shop at TTAC3

You have something you don't need or want.. You put a price on it and leave it at the Exchange.

someone else comes by and likes what they see.. they pay the kitshop.. and the kitshop forwards the cash to the owner of the article.( less a small fee, )

Little risk.. on both sides.. Seller gets his money .. buyer gets his goods.
and the buyer has the benefit of seeing the article before buying..

Downside... No gun sales, good only for the GTA community.

Why not just use COD?
The only risk there is the post worker *loosing* your money. Ask Mike_TG... but he eventually got what was his (about 2 weeks later).

I played middle-man once. Got burned for something that was not my fault or my problem. Never again.
And we've seen recently a major series of problems with a person who figures prominently in their own "Problems with..." thread. I sure would not want to be middle-man in such a mess.