What is "Milsim" to you?
 

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Airsoft, more specifically, "Milsim" has changed a lot when I first started playing. When I first started just over 5 years ago, every Milsim operated under the phrase "if you're not miserable, it's not a milsim" - You were routinely asked to stay on defense, do actual work like digging holes or fortifying positions, and spending most of a 24 hour period not doing anything.

Most games I see have people leaving early now after they have had their fill, or saying games where they are fighting for only 12 out of 24 hours as "boring" - Milsim in a lot of ways has now come to mean skirmish.

I'm slowly trying to work back to the fundamentals of Milsim - but I need input from you guys. What makes a game a Milsim for you? What elements are important to the game? What have you found distracts from the overall experience? What would you like to see more of and what would you like to see less of?

"Boring" is fun.
The Milsim community is being revived in Manitoba over time by some motivated individuals (Long May They Reign), but it appears to be a gradual process. A lot of it seems to be giving players exposure to it through highly directed games so that they can build a new headspace for it.

Due to the population and group dynamics of Manitoba, we've found that it might be a good idea to have two games running in the same space; one that's faster and more action oriented with built in rest periods for the rabble and the uninitiated, and one that's slower that works around areas won and lost by the 'fast' game.
Still very much experimental, but shows promise.

Talk to Evan, I can't remember his name on here, maybe Wrath144?

I think for many that don't know about what is really involved in Milsim, and are only into the fast paced scrim games. There needs to be a middle step. Call it Milscrim.

Milsim, to me, is objective based game play with clearly defined roles and rule of engagement. Its not about trigger time its about strategy, team dynamics, working as a unit, clear communications. Its about out thinking your opponent rather than out shooting him. This does not what many younger (and some older) airsofters want, they count their kills and decide if they had a good day by the ratio of deaths to kills. I use to be like that.

In Milscrim you could start to get the speedballers interested in more objectives than killing the enemy. This can have some of the objective, team oriented stuff going on, but still have a good amount of trigger time and action. This is where I'm at now. I love this kind of game play. And it seems that the younger, faster players are good with it as well.

More games where people go to sleep in CP at 10 and half the team leaves by 11.

MVP.

More games where the gates are padlocked and you have your keys turned in to game control so they know who the lil' bitches are. Only way to leave is the game ends or your wife is having a baby or something relevant.

My first big event was Rhino 2, I believe they were locking the gates there if I'm correct. Thought to myself, "wow this is cool shit"

I started 5 years ago, made the switch from paintball/woods ball because I enjoyed more tactical based games.

For myself personally Milsim, means being organized into military style units with leaders, command, a set structure and clear objectives. It's not about size, but quality of game play.

I don't expect to be in a gun fight all the time, but for me I'd expect 3-4 good battles in a 24hr period. Setting up a FOB, ambush, going on patrol, providing support and relieving other squads, taking prisoners, gathering Intel, it all speaks to me.

Yes I want to sling plastic, but I also want some strategy and realism. I don't want to guard a position for 8 hrs that will never see contact. If digging a hole is required for me to fortify my position, then I dig. I don't want senseless random tasks because that's what they do in the real military.

I may as well post my Milsim manifesto here as well

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

A joke.

Big thread on this already. And it was in the stickies.http://airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=159185

I enjoyed milsim until all the rich kids got gen 3 nods. Kinds changed the game a little but I still enjoy it. I do get the point of those who "play 12 of 24 hours" however they need to understand that war or simulation of war isn't designed to be like call of duty team death match. That's a skirmish. A milsim has you doing things that may seem pointless however if your doing them right they are having an impact on the rest of your team and the enemy etc...
Now I like the immersion factor. Give me a ghillie and a partner and an AO and let me know what you need. I'll communicate with my partner and they can watch my ass and handle all other communication. Let me know who you need watched, located or dead and I'm on it.
I can do that for 4 hours of a 30 hour game and then run assault or recon or go chill at the base camp. I can stay in my AO until endex and not fire a shot, that's milsim because that's exactly what can happen to a sniper any given work day. To me, as I basically have said, if it's realistic then it's milsim. If it's 3 respawn move the box or rescue the piolet the swap sides. That's skirmish.

A game in which it is actually beneficial and desirable to AVOID a firefight from time to time.
Bragging rights for blowing out 5 tiki torches on your own while a team of 30 people is patrolling around them. It's fun to do stuff OTHER than shoot eachother from time to time.

I sympathize with Hectic. Being one of those dickbags with gen3, I would like to handicap myself to make it less advantageous while still keeping it fun. And also without having to install enough lights on the field to make it look like daytime.
Scatter a few tiki torches about, NV uses pistol only, siege where only attackers have NV, etc.

The main element here missing is that the military culture is not very involved in organizing milsim events like msw is to help refocus the very definition of milsim back to it's core in some areas of the country.

...forget that, it's the millennials fault.

It's not that i am against NV of any kind it just always winds up being 1 sided as all the kids with the cool toys tend to stick together lol. Just sleep at night and harris them all the next day while they are sleepy from being up all night patrolling empty trails lol.

Rich kids? lol

Most of the guys I know with high end gear worked their butts off for it and allocated more personal budget than others. Skill and team work will always be the best tool, but I've never seen a sport/game where technology has such a deep effect. One thermal imager on the field can drastically alter a teams advantages, and you what? I dig it. Bring it on, raise the bar, tear up the competition, go ahead. Like minded players always stick together. Give another team a bevy of humvees, with platoons of NV wearing, thermal rocking goodness and I'll return the next year with an EMP. I'm partially kidding of course. I'm sure some limits will always be set, but if you can afford it, find it, use it effectively, all the power to you, because I definately will if I can. I've been outgunned at night with no NVs, when it seemed everyone on the other team had something, and we still won. I love the technological potentials in airsoft.

As for milsim, it's rarely very milsim at all. I like the simulation side as an balancing point, but the tactically competitive nature is where it's at. If you're not going through motions of doing military action (patrols, etc), then it isn't very realistic. Leave the storylines and role playing out of it, we don't need to know why. Layout the scenario guidelines and how to win, i.e. hostages, infiltration, etc, throw a bunch of teams into the mix and let them battle it out. Realism for balance and dynamic, but without the fluff, winning or competition will always be the end focus, so unless you want to reinact, come to kickass, not to pretend you're a soldier.

I actually quite enjoy guarding an objective for hours on end without TIC.
But then again, I enjoy pretending I'm a soldier/IO/Contractor unlike ^^^.

A greater technical representation. Use of accurate tactical terms (e.g. "Take out" is not a tactical term; seize, secure, isolate, destroy, block, deny, etc are tactical terms). From my perspective MILSIM is more than wearing the gear and going through extended duration operations. It's a mindset and the ability to duplicate (as best possible) the environment, language, and activities of real military operations.

The guys who want short duration events? Fine - treat it just like a direct action raid. Plan and rehearse the hell out of it (using technical terms, graphics, and methodologies). Guys who want longer duration? Fine - treat it like a company-sized extended operation to seize/hold multiple, complex objectives. Do all the pre-mission activities you do in real life. Just how reenactors pride themselves on period accuracy I believe MILSIM folks should pride themselves on technical (and tactical) accuracy both in word and deed.

I love doing things like that too, just not arbitrarily. If I'm guarding something for hours on end, or even all night, and I have, it's because it was game necessary due the situation, not because we're pretending. Give us the objectives and rules and we'll decide how to win.


This has long been the argument/debate on; exactly what counts as "milsim"? How much realism must you have for it to count? Whatever it is, the term has been tossed around more than Rob's mom.

Our group doesn't call it Milsim, we call it reenactment. Once you show up, change, setup - game is on. 3 hour patrols through swamps without seeing anybody, stuffing your boots with straw to dry them up afterwards, spending entire weekend without firing a shot, be it airsoft or blank fire, getting lost for hours during night patrols, crap floating around in your zelt after 24 hours of rain, getting up to a "stand to whistle" and running to you firing position every freaking two hours while you expected nice and quite night, fighting for one position for hours and getting things brought up to up from the rear. Pissing off your sleeping CO really early in the morning with loud noise to the point where he wakes up and sends everyone to reinforce/camouflage the damn trench which is already 5 feet deep :) People usually stop being part of the action under two conditions - 1. You are really fucked to the point where you cannot function properly for several hours. 2. You need to visit the hospital. Both of those things happened in the past. I guess this is Milsim.

For me it has to be 2 fold

Player level : Proper training in all aspects that involve combat and communications.

Admin level : Proper mission scripting and simulated realistic/probable objectives/consequences a real militairy mission direct action would involve.

You could argue that milsim is possible in a skirmsh setting but that would be at the player level.

Most people seem to agree that more bling is milsim but I disagree, if you are not willing to approch the problem from a military mindset you are still not doing a milsim. You are just playing war with expensive toys.

People need to embrase the suck. Been a while since I saw a game like that here. Hard to get em to pass 6h now.

The elephant in the room is that a lot of people just don't have the base of fitness for it.

I disagree to a degree, some of the vietnam reenacters here are older and less in shape but because the game is paced better and they understand how to wait for it they can "milsim" better for longer periods of time.

I totally agree and 100% disagree. I've seen super overweight (300 plus pounds) and out of shape guys power through 24 hours hardcore and guys who are fit and healthy go down and need hospitalization. So, what you say is true, but I believe people are more easily mentally defeated and are capable of battling through tough times once in awhile, but many are not, or are and don't prepare because they overestimate themselves. Know your limitations, prepare adequately and don't back down from a challenge. You can do it if you prepare.

You're going to be tired, exhausted, fatigued, sore, hurt, bruised, cramped, uncomfortable, dehydrated, overhydrated, hungry, starving, cold, wet, overheated, sun stroked, frustrated, angry, depressed, etc. worst of all, you may even get bored to tears, so buckle up buttercup!

It all depends on how organizers plan their events. There is always a way to come up with roles for people who don't have the stamina to be on their feet entire weekend, people who can't run and gun non stop. Everyone is different. Some people have hard time staying awake at night just because they are wired that way, some people can't stay up for more than 15-16 hours etc. but if things are organized in the right fashion, there will be something to do for everyone.

This is another tough one. Some players/organizers don't want a staggered event, they want a push through/anything can happen at any time, kind of event. If you leave the area or sleep at the wrong time the other team may capitalize, etc. It's the organizers responsibility to clearly post the expectations of the event and the players responsibility to only attend if they are prepared to battle through. I've been to too many events where swathes of the other team just up and quit leaving our opponents severely under manned and out gunned. What's that about? Why'd you come if you were just gonna bitch out?

I'll reiterate that preparedness is key. I don't think people prepare. Have a warm layer, good food, lots of water, a sleep system and fresh undies socks and boots on top of your other gear, and be ready to carry it. You can't huff a sleeping bag around with you, so have an adequate plan (ranger blanket), and don't try to just sit around in the rain for hours, then try to rest cold and wet. Pile on to that the fact that your team may be disorganized, frustrated and losing badly and you'll get a snowball effect. That's the reality. If you can't deal, don't go.

One decent option I've seen is full events with multiple drop ins. You can play the whole thing, but they'll have several 6-8 hour part time groups that come and go. So you can sign up for a morning or evening window, then you can leave while the others push on. That way you're only getting a 10-20 player swing, not half of one team walking out because little bitches.

Ricochet, I agree with every single one of your points. I'm sure event orgs will get some useful feedback posted in this thread and will again re-assess the situation.

P.S.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricochet View Post
If you leave the area or sleep at the wrong time the other team may capitalize, etc.
Damn, this so familiar "Where is evebody??? I don't know, probably went to sleep".

Than, 2 hours later enemy standing there, having smokes at our "main base".

delta you were at 3 of my all time "milsim" games

jaguar kings (wolfpack)
shallow lake 2 (Ladytresses)
athena 2 (fuzzhead)

jaguar kings, had morse code over the radio, gps coordinates, chill time, drink time, food time, back to game time so much things over 24 hours I loved it.

Shallow lake 2, fuck sakes Im miserable I guess this is what real soldiers feel like lol, oh shit I have tick bites i hope i dont have lime disease , or get eating by a bear or a black widow bite lol

athena 2, had so much going on, constant objectives, tons of game control staff...

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basically keep me busy for aslong as you can =milsim, not skirmish me as long as you can, just keep me busy (fighting, not fighting, finding things, helping, rescuing) and I will enjoy it...

but I do have to side with Hectic big time on the GEN 3.... you saved up a whole year and bought some GEN 3, great, your finally a ninja in airsoft, *hand clap* does it make you feel good when half the guys toss in the towel? or maybe putting yourself at a EQUAL disadvantages actually makes the game fun? Im not against them, but when you can see guys walking in the dark knowing they cant see shit, how are you having fun? its like signing up for a game and seeing all VETS on one side, and all NOOBS on the other, how do you expect to have fun at the game when its clearly uneven? was it worth it?

anyways... keep me busy, objectives, ... day objectives, night objectives, fighting, not fighting, searching, building, the other constant theme is limited ammo... unlimited ammo makes it feel like a skirm and fuck those complainers, they arent for milsims... the best feeling in a milsim is "should I try to shoot that guy or conserve ammo" "I need 2 guys to follow me into x... I dont know if I have enough shots" "oh fuck im out of ammo what do we do now were surrounded?" limited ammo and milsims go hand in hand... not that "300" BB limit go back to spawn and reload 300 again... Im talking that 50 BB??? the whole GAME??? "maybe" type ammo limits...

keep the guys on the field, away from their cars, cars are safety blankets, Ive resorted to them myself but each game I like to think I come better prepared each milsim... those 3 games I mentioned have that common thread, every player was still in the game up until the game ended,

Lots of butthurt in this thread.

Mislim is what you make it. The guys who can't or won't buy the toys need to step back from shitting on those that do. You are the reason why milsim has fallen into the dustbin of airsoft history, being supplanted by the over-entitled whiners bitching about "fairness" like it's a goddamned human right. Sorry, buttercups, life ain't fair, and neither is conflict, whether in real life or simulated on a nice and safe airsoft field. What we all want is honest play, do not confuse this with fairness.

We have literally abandoned retarded game ideas by admins (soccer ball at RAAT, anyone), wrote our own game on the fly and salvaged a boring skirmish game.

Prepare yourself mentally, equip yourself properly, treat yourself correct physically and do your job out there, regardless what it is.

Whiners have no place in milsim, stick to paintball.

To me, milsim is whatever I make out of any game. I don't care about backstory, like what faction of the Buttfuckerstan Militia stole nukes from the Greater Vaginaville armoury. Just give me an objective, point me in the right direction and let me do my job. Or not, and I will probably do it anyways.

It's not about the toys and fairness, it's about enjoyment. If you can have fun dominanting a basketball game against a group of midgets that's great. I can't. Lol I don't see how that's hard to understand? Lol...

The player pool is only so big. You might have %20 gunho players, %30 mostly gunho, and the other %50 of the guys are here to have fun only. I don't blame those guys for leaving when it stops being fun to them.

The tough games where expectations are clearly laid out, sure, suck it up, I know what I signed up for.

But other games where anybody can sign up, the expectations sound like a skirm, and the game is loosey goosey, I can see why guys leave

Airsoft is a hobby, an entertainment, and airsoft players are paying customers. As such, a certain level of fairness is expected. Comparing airsoft to real life or real combat is ridiculous. A host is an entertainment provider and a player's level of satisfaction should be one of his main concerns. If the player is happy with the game, regardless of the outcome, he will continue to attend. That being said, it is the player's duty to understand the host's expectations. Many people leave early during 18hr+ events. Those that leave due to fatigue or discomfort due to weather are guilty for the outcome themselves, mainly because of lack of preparation or experience. Fixing that problem is up to that individual player. However, there are those who choose to leave strictly because of their issues with the game. Fixing this issue may lay on the host himself.

To touch on the NVGs, they are a part of real military. Those seeking an event that provides an experience closer to the real military shoud expect and accept the use of NVGs. The player's satisfaction, however, still remains a priority. Perhaps the host could demand NVG/thermal users to identify themselves during registration and ensure fair use for both sides? It becomes tricky when only one group has them and wants to play on the same team, though.

Speaking of milsim, seems like just about any event other than a typical 9-4 skirmish game is now a milsim. There are a few issues I have with some games.

I'll start with the story itself. Somehow, nukes, chemical weapons, spies and double agents, combined with emerging factions battling governent forces all thrown into one game seems to be "as close to real combat as you can get" for those seeking feeling like a soldier for a day. Really? The background story doesn't have much impact on the gameplay, I get that. But if you advertise milsim as a game that simulates military, come up with likely scenarios someone serving in the military would face. For starters, treat a 24 hr battle as just that...nothing more. Attempting to throw in all these other world saving activities oversaturates the game in my opinion, and takes away from the realism. Simplicity goes long ways. Seizing a vital bridge or locating and eliminating an HVT visiting a village could be all the game is about.

Use of terrain is vital. Limited use of ammo is a must, I think everyone agrees on that. Have several approved HLS/ground routes as means of replenishing your ammo. It gives commanders secondary objectives they can engage, seize and hold at their own discretion in order to ensure primary objective being met.

Medic rules can be an issue sometimes. I can't stand seeing a guy get hit, only to have medic bandage him and he's suddenly cured and good to go. Not only does that NEVER happen in reality (realism at its finest), but it also elmininates the impact of a perfectly good hit. A casualty must be treated as casualty...period! Yes, have a bleedout time. Have a medic stop the bleeding by applying bandaid to the "wound" - that doesn't mean tapping a guy and you're good to go. That gives the casualty more time but he still needs to be evac'd out of there. Having a guy walk him back to the camp to respawn can to a degree simulate taking away fighting force with treating and evacuating the wounded. It puts commanders in situation where they have to decide when to push and when to focus on the casualties. Failing to keep a guy alive (bleedout) should have consequences. In airsoft, it's time off - that's a significant time off. Having troops killed should put a strain on the command at all levels. Bottom line....there is no way a guy should be able to continue playing from the spot he was hit.

Aaaand it's dinner time.

My issue is in the semantics, outside of the few game scenarios I've read off ASC almost everything isn't a military simulation.

If you really want to experience the military the Canadian Forces might have an opportunity for you.

Me personally I read the description and rules of the event and decide if that's worth the price, time and effort required to participate.

Bottom line this is a hobby, a game, it could be made to mimic the military but in reality it never will.

Just some thoughts from a passive observer; someone who's not had a chance to do a "milsim" yet...

For me, approaching 2 years of playing airsoft, the reason this thread exists is a major reason I've not gone to any "milsims" yet. There seems to be a significant variety of milsim types, from the day-long skirms in urban settings to the crazy 48h+ games in wooded environments, all of which require different levels of preparation. It's hard for me to know which one's are noob-friendly, especially because most of my friends haven't done one either.

I started playing airsoft because I like strategy and tactics. As long as a game gives me strategic objectives I'm pretty much a happy dude. I've watched a lot of footage from American games, from MSW etc... I'm not a fan of those staged scenarios like what they had at faded giant in the Nuclear hostage scenario. Too much yelling, and to serious for my liking. It ends of feeling like a Call of Duty map; scripted and only one outcome...

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Generally a good game will have a host of objectives that will, or won't, be completed by either team, in a competitive/back and forth manner. Small objectives are okay to lock in, but larger ones can be constantly in contention. The admin staff will have a small amount of micro management to keep the game rolling, like adding time constraints to an objective, or adding an objective, but without steering HOW the players do their tasks. Too many games now have too many little things to do. If taking over the enemy FOB is a primary objective, I should be able to throw all of our forces, or just a small strike team at it, or whatever. I should be able to recon and wait until their guard is down, or wait for nightfall to take the objective. We know what we want the end to be, but path taken is on the players, or should be.

All games are noob friendly as long as you do some reading, have the proper gear and preparedness and as long as it isn't your first time out, sometimes. It's best to play Airsoft long enough to figure out what you want out of it.