upgrades - different brands
 

ok guys, i'm just curious if there is a signifigant difference in brands for different upgrades such as beariings, tappet plates, piston heads etc. Does systema really hold the torch to the other guys, are they all equal get the cheapest one, or is it best to mix and match?

I''ve tried to look for reviews comparing different brands and getting the general idea on which one is better but I just don't see any definative answeres out there. If it matters I want to work on my ICS MP5 SD5.

next question, is it better to get a full tune-up kit offered by guarder and systema or get the peices individually? I don't want to go cheap, but I don't want to waste money that will give me no added benifit in durability, ROF, or FPS.

Thanks

Hurricane Full Tune Up Kits. All the goodies you could want, for just $75!!!

there IS a difference. From what I've seen, increases in prices results in better materials and better manufacturing process. The final products on more expensive parts are typically finished much nicer than cheaper alternatives.

Also, regarding performance, there is a difference between brands. Personally, I look for increased velocity consistency first and reduced battery wear second when I pick the parts for my guns and ALL my guns have a Frankenstein mish-mash of gearbox parts.

I've done a lot of quantitative testing on a lot of parts, and you definitely can't go "wrong" with any of the FTK's available. I haven't done any durability tests, but I have noticed that Systema parts consistently have higher consistency than their cheaper counterparts.

use ics parts only in an ics mechbox. they make upgrade parts. bushings are smaller inner race than marui compatible bushings and ics gears will wobble in marui sized bushings and marui compatible gears are too tight and won't turn in ics bushings. ics tappet is larger than marui tappet and they are cross-compatible. selector plate, semi-auto sway bar and spring guide are also NOT compatible. use ics oily brass bushings, keep your gears, get ics steel ver II spring guide and get piston, piston head and cylinder head from whomever you like. or you could just get a new mechbox but you will have to use the ics selector plate.

Wha..?
Is there anything compatable?
Like.. any Systema parts compatable? and the Systema is compatable, is it not?

Also, the front handguard, is that compatable?
The threads on the barrel, for the flash hider, what are the threads? 14- or 14+?

And of cource, do G&P midcaps work? I just ordered 4... and a Systema barrel...

Sorry to jack the thread...

barrel is fine and mags are fine. threads are different pitch as my marui flashider won't fit on my ics. i don't advise people to do 400+ fps upgrades on ics m4 as the split mechbox has limits. you can do bushings and such (ics ones) and they make complete upper mech box kits with an m120 for easy changeout. but for guys who want to buy a gun and are planning a shitload of upgrades before they even get it, this is NOT the gun for you. get a tm. the mp5 series is a little different. same proprietary parts (mostly) but more upgrade options. handguard is different than marui but i haven't tried to interchange them (what for i don't know). thread is left hand on flashider btw.

Illusion:

can you rate the folow brands for quality and consistancy (1-10 on Guarder, systema, FTK and stock gears on an ICS gun so that I can make a educated choice for price/performance. or does this vary to much part to part to give an accurate performance summery?


The end result that I want with this gun:
- 300 fps max (M90 varried compression spring ??)
- very good shot consistancy
- quiet mechbox as best as I can (silent piston head, ball bearings not bushings etc.)
- accuracy
- stupid fast ROF (high speed gears and if I find a used eg1000 motor down the road)
- battery life and price is of no concern to me. Batteries are cheap and I can save up longer to get the job done. If I need to spend $300 so be it .. as long as the above results is what I get ... I'm good to go.

I'd rather take a few months to get things to where I want them then go middle ground and regret it later. i know quality is expensive, and goign cheap is useually not worth it. I have no intent on keeping any of the internals of the mechbox as this gun is very used. the gears all show signs of wear, the selector plate is on it's last leg and hte tappet plate is screwed becuase somone else had a "golden screwdriver" (CB and Ham radio guys will know what I mean). Bottom line I got a gun for cheap, now I want to make this little boys gun into a CQB BFG boom stick hehe.

Oh, I have read and heard different opnions on hopup buckings .. there is stock, hard and silicone which is made by Guarder I think. I tried to search but I want a bottom line as to what is the advantages or drawbacks of each type or if there is a definitive holly grail that I can buy that is just better then the rest. kn 6.04 barrel will be used in this gun and a max of 300 fps.

thanks guys, you are all a big help. I wish there was a toms ahrdware guide to performance parts for airsoft guns. The only thing I can go by (from what I have read so far) is what forum users say or talk around the field. So far I have seen very little actaul testing of parts from different manufactures to compare one to the other and the differences between them.

Wow... this guy wants the same thing as me, EXACT, except I went a bit cheap and got a Systema barrel, not sure of quality difference.

I'm interested to see what this would cost now.

cost to me is not a big issue. not that i'm rich, just i'd rather save and go good then skimp out and buy cheap and be dissapointed down the road.

It would be too much (at this time) to go into detail on which is best for what part... also, all my empirical tests were done on one and at MOST, two samples of the same part. It's very possible that the same product from a different manufacturing batch 3 years down the road will perform different as the original casting moulds wear down, changes are made, etc.
Also, different gearboxes, different guns, and different combinations of parts can yield different results. Most differences are so miniscule, that you would hardly notice a difference unless ALL of your shots gave you some form of digital readout on various statistics.

The only thing I can comment on is construction/finish quality and engineering ingenuity from best to worst:

- Phoenix (currently only have gearsets available, I don't have any long term tests done yet to be able to provide durability results)
- Prometheus
- Systema
- Angel
- Guarder

I would consider the above to be "premium" products. Very good and actually give greater performance than stock Marui parts.

The following parts, I would consider to be equal to, or worse than Marui:
- G&P
- ICS
- Classic Army <-- GETS A BIG FAT ZERO FROM ME. YOU COULDN'T PAY ME TO USE THEIR STUFF, UNLESS IT WAS IN *YOUR* GUN. Even still, I would highly advise you against it.

Those are just my findings from handling/using those products. I've used some of those products longer than others. Beyond that, I don't have much experience with many other parts.



*note: This above information is based purely on personal opinion stemming from the following characteristics:
- build quality (presence of flash or other moulding anomolies, sharp or generally unclean edges, etc)
- features different from other brands





Picking a more silent setup over a noisier setup can sometimes (and usually will) reduce shot consistency, although not by a seriously appreciable amount. Differences I've found are within 5fps average deviation.


I could tell you what parts are good in my guns for my purposes from the parts sample which I had access to, but I can't promise you'll get the same results. You may get similar, but no system can ever be exactly the same once you start getting down to the little numbers. The information that I tell you below is just to give you an idea of what I use and the results I received after testing every single part that I could get my hands on for v6 gearboxes at that time.

I can say with confidence that the quietest setup I've used so far is helical gears with 7mm BEARINGS (not bushings) (a new gearbox will be needed for that), and an Angel silent head set with bearings on it (which you'll have to extract from another bearing piston head set.)

The best shot consistency that I've recorded is on my P90 with these parts:
Spring: KM 100M
Piston: Systema Polycarbonate (red, old style)
Piston Head: Systema Aluminum with bearings
Cyliner Head: Systema
Cylinder: KM TN Taper
Nozzle: Systema
Spring Guide: Systema v2
Inner Barrel Systema BS (335mm)

Tested at 24 degrees Celsius using Airsoft Elite 0.25g BBs, a 20 shot sample yielded an average deviation of 0.6345fps and a standard deviation of 0.7522fps.

Thank you so much man. This is exatly the info that I was searching for. A definative this is generally better then the next review from a first hands on experianced person.

next question, how much difference in noise is the helical gears compared to flat gears? A matter of 1 or 2 db or much much more at >6 db

also is there that much of a difference between the angle silent head and the systema red silent head?

thanks again for your time in answering my questions :)

umm... i can't really answer that question. it's a subjective sound. the tonal qualities are different. and I don't have any instruments to measure the sound. I just know the high pitched "sewing machine" isn't as bad with helical gears.

The difference between the angel silent head set and the systema... i'm not sure how you want me to answer that. are you talking about how they're designed? They're both designed on completely different concepts.

Angle Vs Systema:

I was aiming that questions towards the sound they make and how much of a difference there is between them. I relize this is very subjective, but right now your subjective answers are alot better then what I can read as the description on any retail web site hehe.

basically i'm looking for some insite as to why you put the Angle silent head ahead of the systema set. Is it becuase it makes a lower tone that is more esily muffled by say foam around the mechbox, is it desinged better, does it just plain make less noise, do you liek the color better, etc.

ohhh.. okay.

yeah, the angel one is definitely quieter. I can't give you a decibel value, but i'd say greater than 3db decrease (based on the fact that a 3dB difference equals a halving or doubling in perceived volume.)

Also, I was able to witness some empirical testing between the Angel and Systema silent head sets that showed the Angel was much softer on the gearbox.

I chose the Angel because... it really is quieter. and because it's safer on my gearbox. The build quality is close to Systema. It is also a simpler, but more effective design. I wonder how durable it is in the long run.

actually perceived volume doubling by humans is 10dB. electrically doubling is 3 dB (at least that's what they taught in EIA courses years ago)

that sounds more correct. it's been a while...

i stand corrected.

Can you offer any other reviews or comparrisons for other Angel products? I can see they have an entire line.

can anyone tell me why there is not a "toms hardware guide" to airsoft? I mean really, how would a person like me know which products to choose from without having to go throught he insane expsnese of purchaseing each and every product out there. Or anyone else for that matter. I'm sure if money was an issue there it tons of people who would donate $20 ea to have a chance to see these product tested side by side and showing real world results.

well that's pretty much the problem. Lack of funding and donations, which is why I limited all of my experiments to springs only. Anything beyond that would've been too expensive - and even still, it took me almost a year to unload all of the springs used in my tests.

Another reason is the number of variables involved when it comes to a physical system such as an AEG gearbox. Setting up accurate tests would be EXTREMELY time consuming. But hey, if someone is willing to put down the right number in cold hard cash, I'm sure there would be lots of ppl willing to do it.

Tom's hardware is subsidized fairly heavily by advertisers & sponsors as well as companies who are willing to give "samples" of their products for the purpose of review & testing. He's funded enough to make the site his full-time job. It would be cool if some of us could be paid a full-time salary to play with BB guns... but as far as North Americans goes, that's definitely NOT happening. The airsoft market isn't as large as the computer industry and frankly, I doubt airsoft companies in Asia could give a shit.

Unfortunately, I can't offer any other reviews or comparisons for Angel products. Their silent head set is the only item I've ever tested. I've handled their spring guides and pistons, but my gut just tells me not to spend not too much time on them. Don't ask me why, I just do. I can't see them being much better or worse than Systema products.

As a side note, I use Systema as my base-line for all comparisons.

I use systema gears, though my gun is noticable louder....they dont seem to mesh 100% perfectly with the EG1000 so it kinda screams at me. I hope my new gaurder reinforced grip helps seat the motor better.
With all the back and forth about the systema piston, I decided to wait till my current TM one dies and go Prometheus.

IMHO, the mechbox shell is the most important. no matter whats in your mechbox, if the shell breaks, your inner parts are screwed.
I heard alot of bad about the systema mechboxes, so I got a hurricane and she works fine(and I put quite a beating on it).

I never heard of Phoenix before
"Features quoted from PHOENIX:
1)Shock absorbable construction makes Gears,Piston,and Bearing will last longer 10x more
2)No trouble on Over 300,000 BB's shooting test
3)Keeping an incredible durability without any modifications
4)Equipped automatic Shim adjustment it easily can be installed gears set in properly without mess of it
5)Reinforced Steel can be made extremely precise and Incredible long lasting durability gear set
6)Their teeth of Bevel gear are curved shape by cutting obliquely on the angular faces of the gears that make them spiral like helical gear mean gears rotates extremely smooth without unwanted noises in operation"

sounds good, will be on my next order

Sorry to bring this thread, but I thought that is was better to revive a dead thread than creating a new one about the same matter...

Will a Angel silent piston head set will fit with:
Guarder airseal nozzel
Stock TM piston (and eventually Systema Area 1000 Poly Carbonate Piston (black))

Systema does have a different version of cylender head for the ver3 mechbox of the AUG and other AEGs. Angel doesn't seem to have a different version. Am I wrong? Will the Ver3 cylinder head from the silent kit of Angel will fit in an AUG?

From the look, or your intuition, could you say if one or the other would be more long lasting?

Thanks a lot

Kymoz

Yes

Yes

I'd recommend asking a retailer that carries them such as UNCompany.
If I were to guess, I'd say it wouldn't be the right size to fit an AUG, G36C or Sig552.

Honestly, I've NEVER seen or even heard of a piston head breaking. I think that would be the least of your worries.

Thanks a lot Illusion for your answer.

I'll keep you updated on what UNCompany will answer me...

Kymoz

no worries about bringing up this thread. I am also curious as to what uncompany says about teh angel silent head set.

"Area 1000 is Systema's "budget/economical" line. The build quality and feature sets are equivalent to Guarder. Standard Systema are usually built with better materials and finished a bit nicer."

Ok, thanks.
I needed a Polycarbonate Piston from systema, WGC had two models:
-Area 1000 blah blah blah (black)
-Systema Polycarb piston (Red)
I've read many time that the red ones had some faults. I then red that the problem was solved. I then read again that some old not good red were still flying on the market... I know this was already discussed here, but as I said, I've read many different things on this issue.
Didn't want to take any chance, so I bought the Area black one.

Kymoz

If you're interested in purchasing the better quality red ones (compared to Area1000), just make sure you ask your retailer which one they have. If they have no idea what you're talking about, don't shop from them.

I have the new ones for sale. I have one of the old ones in my possession, but it's not for sale.
For reference, the "problem" with it wasn't a fault at all, and was a built-in "feature". Installers using improper spring/pistonhead combinations with this old piston ended up killing their gears/pistons and pointed fingers at Systema. As a result, a "dumbed down" version was made to reduce failure. I've yet to have any failures with this old piston and it's been 4 years.

But regardless, I won't carry the old ones either because I don't want to take blame either. I've confirmed that all of the pistons I have for sale are the new variety and I've confirmed this with all of my distributors. At least within this circle, they're clean.
It's easy to spot the old piston from the new piston.

After more than a week of of waiting, UNCompany haven't replied about my question on the Angel silent piston head set.

I'll follow the wise advices from ILLusion:
So........... Systema it will be!

Kymoz

thanks for the update

im reiving this once again. i have an ics mp5 sd5 as well, and have a reinforced mechbox but haven't installed it yet, as i want to use it stock for a bit. other than the mechbox, what can i do to get the gun under but close to 350 fps as that is the limit of an indoor place i play at. just springs?

easy:

-PDI 120% or Guarder SP90 spring
-upgrade spring guide (stock ones break with upgrade springs with bad consequences)
-aftermarket metal bushings (PDI, Guarder, Systema, Etc.)

and this wont take me over 350? and what promethius spring guide (ms100? or syst with bearing version 2)?

All you need is a mild spring and metal (not bearing) bushings. The stock parts are fine for the rest.
That information is already posted and pinned.

thank you for your help!