Airsoft in Tactical Gear Magazine
 

The latest issue of this magazine (by far my favourite, has gear, tactics, techniques and such in it, as opposed to Soldier of Fortune or SWAT........ which I tend to buy a fair bit as well, but sometimes won't due to lacklustre a issue that doesn't make me want to spend the $6.99).

The article, Reality Based Training Saves Lives, spends most of it's time (on the gear side of things) going over airsoft, and they focus on the Systema PTW (Professional Training Weapon), which in itself is a VERY sweet setup!!! As close to the real deal that airsoft can get.

http://www.ez-co.com/Rpt_SystemaA3/01.asp

also see www.zshot.com

What a gorgeous gun... it's nice to see that Airsoft is getting better exposure as a training gun. I'd say that it'd make banning airsoft significantly harder if PD's had them as trainers.

The thing is, PD don't train that much, especially with long guns.
They do more reange time than rehersal.

Which police department are you talking about? Do you have experience with said police department, or are you just speaking out of your ass?

Play nice boys!

Umm... he's an actual PD officer...

Hes right. my uncle has been with vpd for the better part of 30 years. I have spent alot of time talking to him about the training they do and for the most part the mainly do range drills and such. simple room clearing activities but nothing to extensive. and as such even durring his time with the vpd ert team, verry few times did he use a long rifle in training. they tend to perfer the H&K MP5 series, or pistols.

You wont see many law enforcement agencies using airsoft, if any at all. There are far better products out there for training use, like Simunition, which allows them to use their own service weapons (with a minor alteration to ensure that real bullets can not accidentally get mixed in).

When I took my PAL course, the teacher remarked that policemen are regularly outshot by civvies in shooting competition. A lot of police work is paperwork. While there are highly trained special officers with very strong shooting skills, it seems that the majority of police are able to handle a firearm safely, but aren't exactly expert shooters.

Perhaps it's a function of not having to actually fire in the field very often which might speak well of society in general. If officers were regularly outshot or regularly shot bystanders a much greater emphasis might be placed on situational training.

that review mentioned that systema has (possibly?) an MP5 in the works...

That'd be super awesome.

An MP5 with all the fun features.

Cost. They can use their own guns, but would have to have the actions, barrels, etc. all replaced to fire the Simunition, hence the added cost of LOTS of money. Airsoft is dirt cheap, as is the ammo for them. Got this above info from the article, and it makes perfect sense.

And Fox111 is a security guard, not a cop, unless he made it into cop training since I last talked to him.

EDIT: Gonna add in the blurb regarding why Simuntion isn't for every department and why airsoft is better:

"Simunitions are real firearms that have been converted to fire sub-calibre marking cartridges. Simunitions offer much greater realism and flexibility, but the rounds can be costly, and the conversion kits are not currently available for all weapons and calibers."

Goes on to say this, which we all know already, and is an extremely good reason WHY airsoft is a better training aid for police departments:

"Airsoft manufacturers have replicated every popular handgun and rifle. Through use of high tech plastic polymer technology and comuter aided design, manufacturers have created Airsoft guns in intricate detail. The cost of the average high quality Airsoft gun is $75 to $200, and the ammunition runs about $20 for 6,000 BBs. The combination of realism, safety and low cost has made Airsoft guns appealing alternatives to other products. However, they are made of lightweight aluminum and plastic, so they're fragile and not as durable as real weapons."

Aside from his getting the metal type wrong, he's right on the money. If your department uses Beretta 92s, buy a bunch of Beretta 92 airsoft guns. If your department uses Glock 22s in .40 S&W, buy a bunch of airsoft Glock 17s. If they are issued Glock 23s in .40S&W, buy a bunch of airsoft Glock 19s (In both cases, full sized and compact are the exact same physical size, regardless of the 9mm and .40 S&W differences). From there, the author leads into the paragraphs regarding the Systema PTW.

Im not a secury guard anymore :wink:

I happend to work with lot of police officer and I know a bunch personnaly. So no, they don't train except for pistol and shotguns at the range. Most of them don't even know how to clear a room properly except for the trainning they got at Nicolet. (police institute).

Nuff said Fox, glad you came in to clear it up. On all that you said of course. I can't see many Canadian police departments doing any real training with airsoft/Simunition/etc. Too traditional up here, and unless you patrol Toronto, little need to train in drawing a gun anyways. Which in my opinion is a mistake, but who will listen to me anyways. Is all to bad, in my opinion police depatments should put themselves through airsoft training with airsoft players. Why? Because the article I posted emphasises force-on-force training to condition their officers for real world shoot outs. Airsofters, by choice, engage in force-on-force engagements anyways, so chances are, you put a range trained officer up against a skilled airsofter with the same weapons in any environment, the airsofter will always win because it's what they are used to doing. Worst criminal for a police officer to go up against would be a vet of a war (obviously) but a regular airsofter will be more used to force-on-force and actually shooting someone than the cop will.

Cops need better funding, and more emphasis on REAL training, including shooting and being shot by making mistakes.

I agree with you. But I must add that we don't live in the far west. Or should I say, in the US. Violent confrontation involving guns is not very common. Granted, when it happend, it's best to have a well trainned officer to deal with it. But due to the low % of weapon confontation, they won't allow a budjet to train officer in this.

From a director point of view, SWAT teams are there to deal with that shit, so it's cheaper to train them only.

When I look at the statistic of violent crime involving firearms, it's pretty stable too. So we won't see that changing soon.

Or Toronto................... I trust you've been keeping up with that one......... blacks are safer in Detriot than in Toronto........... Toronto is the prime example of how the "Soft On Crime" mentality does NOT work!

In the end, every single one of our law enforcement officers needs annual training with force-on-force. For starters, it makes them understand shoot or get shot mentality, but also makes them feel comfortable simply pointing their guns at criminals when arresting. Not that every criminal needs a gun shoved in his face, but for cops, they won't stand there thinking "Whoa, this is different!" and have them position themselves ina way that if the arrest goes bad, they had it go bad with airsoft and got shot in the ass, therefore they know enough to put their body in behind some type of cover when making their arrest. That is a prime example of where force on force training is usefull, even if not single shot if fired. Let's you knwo what parts of your body are exposed to bullets.

Cost is a small price to pay for almost exact realism.

Yes, BUT, if the department is already strapped for cash (many ARE), then alternatives have to be looked at. Also, if you read above, what if the guns your department uses daily isn't available in Simunition form? Go with a totally different type for the sake of realism, then make your officers learn a new weapon system for training, and a different one that will actually save your life?

I fully understand your point, but understand the other details present. Ideally the best is to train with as close to the issued guns as possible. If the carry gun is a Glock, why train with a Simunition Beretta 92 when you can train with a Glock GBB? Both operate differently, Glock has the trigger safety, Beretta has a switch that sits high on the slide. Many officers aren't very gun savvy and will get screwed up.

Then back on the cost thing, if half a dozen GBBs and plenty of ammo can be had for the price of one Simunition conversion kit or actually Simunition gun......... Not sure about other cities, but the Ottawa Police Force is extremely strapped for cash, constantly hear about it in the news, their trying to get more cash out of City Hall, and are under staffed as well. I think we have like one officer for every 700 people here. Not sure the standard across the country, but there are more pressing things than just spending $20-30k for a couple Simunition guns. Be nice if departments can rent a set for a few weeks though. Anyone want to start a business? ;-)

Be nice if departments can rent a set for a few weeks though. Anyone want to start a business?
lol i was just thinking that

I don't know what stats you've been reading, but over a ten year trend, violent crimes in Toronto have been falling. There's only been a slight increase in the use of firearms. Toronto is the safest big City in Canada. For a city our size, and to still remain quite safe, that says something of the way the or social programs are working.

About the use of Airsoft as a training aid. Though cheaper than simunitions or blanks, it doesn't ad enough to the realism. Yes, you get the feel for moving through a room with a weapon, and popping off a few shots, but there's no bang or hard recoil. Those are two of the biggest factors to get over when actually using a weapon, and thats something Airsoft can not train you for.

That's twice in as many weeks that you've said this. Must really be that either the media is making up stuff with all the reports of shootings (just yesterday I came across a shooting at a funeral in Toronto) or you are a member of Toronto city council and in typical denial. I don't go by stats, I go by what I hear on the news or see in the National Post or Globe & Mail (who says I don't read liberal biased stuff?). I'd STILL lean towards what the media reports on than by what Shugart on ASC says. No offence, but weigh the sides to see. Have heard a few times in the past couple months that out of all the cities in North America, Toronto is the most dangerous for blacks to live in.......... assume I guess that if you are talking guns and blacks, the media has it down pat, but if we take your issues of overall crime, then it might be much more reduced. I talk about occasions where firearms are drawn and the criminals actually use them in all that I've said, and officers have to actually USE their sidearms, not occasions where police officers are to call out the SWAT team to deal with errant jaywalkers. Hell, from what the reports could actually be, a per capita basis, just like Winnepeg is "murder capital of North America" or whatever has been reported, is 'per capita'. I think this is where you and I will have to agree to clarity.

Back on the thread, airsoft is more realistic than paintball due to the weapons used, and at close ranges airsoft hurts. That is force on force, espeically when used indoors, such as room clearing. Cops learn recoil and boom at the range, as well as the ballistics of their sidearms. Indoor training with GBBs is very effective because you learn from your welts, you learn to grab and hold the gun under stress, deal with any safety that might be on the gun (Glocks are popular, have no safety lever as we know). We aren't talking about training police officers on the range with airsoft, never having them shoot the actual gun they will carry with them and will save their life when/if it comes up, then issuing them the sidearm and hoping they do ok with it based upon training with paintmarkers or airsoft. Simunitions doesn't have the same recoil or noise that real guns do either.

Overall, what you say is the same thing as training pilots in simulators for a year or so, then giving them the licence to fly for major airlines without their ever having seen the cockpit of an actual airplane before. That is the impression I get from your words.

Better switch back to stats. The news will always show that stuff. You end up with the impression that there are many violent crimes, but in reality, you just see what they covered.

The Stats recold ALL known violents crimes. Then, you look at the crime prorata (crime per 1000 citizen) Than you can see if there is an increase or decrease.

You will probably find that it's pretty stable since 1990.
All the stats can be fount on Statistic canada website.

Ask the OPP what they use for training. They use Simunition. Airsoft is nowhere near close enough to the real thing, they are toys. Sorry to say it.
Simunition uses the officers own gun, how much more would you want? I doubt there is a single Police Service in Canada that would use airsoft, but if you want to suggest one, I'm sure I can find out.

The news, by nature of profession, loves to sensationalize everything. Sure Toronto has seen a recent rash of gun crimes, but it is not nearly enough to make it worse than, let's say, Detroit.
p.s. I'm black and live in Toronto and find it to be a very safe city in comparison with Detriot.

They can afford it. Good. Never said that airsoft was BETTER than the alternatives, just that it makes a good affordable alternative to the more expensive stuff.

Renegade and Fox, nuff, said. As I outlined, I hear and read what I hear and read. I avoid Toronto as much as I can, why? I've been there and hate the place. Call me biased if you like. I have opinion as well for certain things, but at least I've been there. Toronto is too fast paced and too Liberal for my tastes. Ok, overall I survived being there, but drivers are insane and a lot of rude people there. I guess that can be said for most places, but Toronto seems to have it in spades. And besides, the Leafs suck. :lol: