UHF RAdio Users - Compatibility Information
 

Well, I wasn't sure where to post this, but I figured Gear was as good a place as any.

Recently, a lot of people have begun moving away from 2 watt FRS / GMRS radios and using 5-6 watt UHF Radios tuned to the FRS / GMRS frequency range.

ONE, THIS IS ZERO, WAIT ONE, OVER!

NOTICE : If you disagree with using 5 or 6 watt transmitters on the FRS or GMRS bands, or want to challenge the legalities, or are deathly afraid that the police will drop out of the ethosphere and bust you for using overpowered radios, please STOP READING HERE. I'm well aware of the legalities, and frankly that is outside of this discussion.

That being said, below you'll find an article I published on the WP boards describing all the frequency mappings for FRS / GMRS radios and the associated CTCSS settings for compatibility with non UHF players using standard FRS / GMRS subchannels. Note that some of the information in the article was compiled from the public domain. As such, I do not take responsilbity for the accuracy of any information provided, excepting that I can personally attest to the accuracy of the GMRS radio frequencies provided. Furthermore, I do not present this article as an original work, as it has been stated that several portions were compiled from the public domain.

ONE, THIS IS ZERO, SEND, OVER!




Below is the frequency table for Motorola's talkabout series of FRS and GMRS radios, as they relate to programmable frequencies for UHF radios. I though that given the increasing use of high-end radios, this might be useful:

Motorola Talkabout Cannels

Ch Service Frequency

1 GMRS/FRS 462.5625
2 GMRS/FRS 462.5875
3 GMRS/FRS 462.6125
4 GMRS/FRS 462.6375
5 GMRS/FRS 462.6625
6 GMRS/FRS 462.6875
7 GMRS/FRS 462.7125
8 FRS 467.5625
9 FRS 467.5875
10 FRS 467.6125
11 FRS 467.6375
12 FRS 467.6625
13 FRS 467.6875
14 FRS 467.7125
15 GMRS 462.5500
16 A GMRS 462.5750
17 GMRS 462.6000
18 B GMRS 462.6250
19 GMRS 462.6500
20 C GMRS 462.6750
21 GMRS 462.7000
22 GMRS 462.7250


About "Sub Channels"

CTCSS (Continuous Tone Controlled Squelch System) is an advanced sub-coding system that allows segmentation of a main channel. When you transmit using CTCSS you are transmitting on one of the main FRS or GMRS channels but you are transmitting an inaudible tone that controls the squelch. To understand how this works think of squelch as a gate that opens only under certain conditions. When it is opened your radio allows the signal to be received and you hear the transmission. Normally, squelch is a gate that is activated by signal strength - the signal must be strong enough or the gate (squelch) won't open. In CTCSS squelch is controlled by an inaudible sub-tone - without the proper sub tone the gate (squelch) won't open regardless of signal strength.

An FRS or GMRS radio equipped with CTCSS allows it's squelch to be broken (allows an incoming signal to be heard) only when it receives a special low frequency tone transmitted by another FRS on the same subchannel. To use CTCSS sub-channels you would set two FRS radio's, equipped with CTCSS, to the same channel and same sub-channel. This way both radios would be transmitting the same low frequency tone when transmitting and looking for the same low frequency tone when receiving.

CTCSS is a useful feature when you only want to hear from a certain radio or group of radios and not everyone else since your radio's squelch will only open when it receives the sub-frequency assigned to the sub-channel you are on. This will stop you from hearing other transmissions on the same channel and/or same channel with different sub-channel.

It is important to note that CTCSS does not provide you with privacy - all it does is eliminate the number of signals your radio will allow you to hear! Your transmission can be received/overheard by any other FRS radios on the same channel - Once your signal is on the air, the signal is fair game to be received by other FRS radios, GMRS radios or scanners. Additionaly, any UHF radio tuned to the "parent" frequency, and not subscribing to the CTCSS, will overhear any transmission sent on that channel. The UHF set's transmissions will be ignored by the recieving FRS or GMRS radio however, unless the corresponding CTCSS code is activated on the UHF set.

Amateur radios operating in the GMRS or FRS frequency range can be configured to use CTCSS "Sub Channels" by configuring the CTCSS tone frequency.

The following is a list of sub-channel CTCSS frequencies:

Code Freq (Hz)
1 67.0
2 71.9
3 74.4
4 77.0
5 79.7
6 82.5
7 85.4
8 88.5
9 91.5
10 94.8
11 97.4
12 100.0
13 103.5
14 107.2
15 110.9
16 114.8
17 118.8
18 123.0
19 127.3
20 131.8
21 136.5
22 141.3
23 146.2
24 151.4
25 156.7
26 162.2
27 167.9
28 173.8
29 179.9
30 186.2
31 192.8
32 203.5
33 210.7
34 218.1
35 225.7
36 233.6
37 241.8
38 250.3



Putting it all together

So, if you are using a UHF radio configured to access the 462-468Mhz band for FRS / GMRS access, and you've been directed to use FRS channel 14-21, you would set your transeiver to 467.7125 with CTCSS tone 136.5.


Hope this helps.

Thanks a lot, this will be really useful as soon as I get my UHF radio.

Figured it might be.

;)

http://www.batlabs.com/frs.html

Of note is the "Privacy Cross Refrence"
Usefull if you are having issues with CTSS working when team mates have different brands of FRS radios.

ADMIN! Make this sticky!

Very useful addition. I'll update the original post later with that, thanks.

I aim to please!

That website also has everything you would ever want to know about every model of motorola - the forums there are great as well... An amazing resource for those who like to use commercial /\/\otorola gear.

UHF RAdio Users - Compatibility Information.
 

Good day,

Any of you whether you have a radio or not might be interested in a series of articles on Personal Radio Communication Services. There are four articles in this series:
1st.: Personal Radio Communication Services
2nd.: Getting the Best Range from your CB, FRS, GMRS or MURS walkie-talkie;
3rd.: Real World Ranges for CB, FRS, GMRS and MURS Radios; &
4th.: Real World Ranges for CB, FRS, GMRS and MURS Radios.

These articles should shed some light on issues related to personal radio communication services. I encourage you to read them. They can be accessed at http://www.thetravelinsider.info/2003/0627.htm.

Following the reading of these articles, I settled on the purchase of a single radio, the ICOM IC-F21GM with the following specs. (you can get more info. at http://www.icomamerica.com/products/frs/f21gm/):
(1) GMRS and FRS in one radio;
(2) Frequency coverage: 462.550-467.725 MHz (UHF);
(3) Output power: 4 W, 2 W, 1 W (adjustable); &
(4) Military radio rugged meeting MIL-STD requirements.

Cordially,

Nemesis.

Love the "middle finger disclaimer" Morb, great stuff! I've used my old beat up Kenwood TK370 a couple times (borrowed headset, need my own), I gotta say the clarity of the transmissions is amazing compared to standard FRS/GRMS radios.

I think you'll find the difference is incredible.

I just picked up one of these for my comms set:

http://www.comtrexcanada.com/product...t=46923&group=

It's unbelieveable.

Thought this might interest some of you:

Tactical_Command_Industries

They put out a really high quality product used by military and police all over North America. I was issued the TACT-LITE earpiece at one point. Found it very comfortable and clear. Their website isn't great, but it works.

hey guys I am currently working on a Airsoft canada deal for these types of radios. I am employeed at a Vertex and Motorola dealer. What models would everyone like to see a deal on purchasing.

Motorola makes a decent UHF radio?

Can VHF [Kenwood] radios be set to GMRS channels?

what's their programmable frequency range?

136.000 - 173.995

No, VHF radios typically cover the 136-174 Mhz band (as yours does). GMRS channels are in the 462.xxxx Mhz band, so you need a UHF radio (typically 400-470 Mhz coverage) to tune into them.

There are also dual band radios which will cover both frequency ranges in both the UHF and VHF bands. (an increasing number of Chinese radios have dual band)

Moved post to: http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=43665

Thanks.

Okay, so I've recently picked up one Kenwood TK350 and two Kenwood TK350G's. The TK350G's are already preset to GMRS channels, but the TK350 was formerly used on Police channels.
So can anybody advise me on how to reset it to all channels or reprogram it to GMRS channels? I've looked around and according to Kenwood I need a KPG22 connector (which I have) and the right software would be KPG23D...but where the hell can I find the software?!

Anybody?

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconVall...Radio/Kenwood/

BTW, it's a DOS program so you may need an emulator to run it. DOS Box reported does.

...I love you...

*edit* SHIT this just got even more confusing...keep in mind I'm not a DOS person...
I can get the radio set to PROG but as soon as I get to the DOS I just can't get anything to follow like the readme says. I open up DOSBox and it keeps telling me that it's the wrong command...did I download the wrong DOSBox? (I grabbed the Windows/Win32 Installer version)
Drake? :|

Hey guys, I have a Kenwood TK-230 that I think operates in the 417-420Mhz range(not entirely sure), it used to be a public services radio.

I think it's 417-420 anyway, can anyone confirm this? Because i'd like to try and program it for GMRS/FRS channels if possible.

Not overly comfortable replying to a necro-post but here goes...

Sorry but your radio is only certified for VHF use, 138-174 MHz. Not sure why you are thinking it's UHF but even with the frequency ranges you specified, it does not cover FRS/GMRS anyway.

Also, without the KCT-1 programming key to allow field programming of frequencies, CTCSS, etc. you're pretty much screwed with that radio...it's really old and was meant for professional 2-way applications such as fire, police, etc. There are other, better radios out there...


'Fly

Why is this thread not stickied? Seriously, guys - this is A-1 info.

Copcarman, you need a UHF radio. Theres a bunch of cheap, programmable UHF radios on eBay all the time. I've been using Puxing (Chinese Kenwood clones) for two seasons now and they have worked wonderfully. You can pick one up for less than $80 shipped.

Actually, i'm sure it's a UHF because I use it to pick up fire/police on those freqs. I bought it primarily as a police scanner(without transmit codes), but was wondering if I could use it for other applications.

Thanks anyway

Police & Fire are NOT necessarily or exclusively using UHF frequencies so again, I would say that unless you can provide a more accurate part number/model number/fitted option number/etc. description to go on, the "Kenwood TK-230" is supposed to be a VHF radio. Besides, if memory serves, 417-420 MHz is not allocated to mobile services in Canada but rather fixed, point-to-point links.

That said, others have mentioned some popular choices but I personally would stick to IC-certified radio equipment (Yaesu/Vertex, Midland, Kenwood Canada, ICOM, Motorola etc.) or the commonly available blister-pack type of FRS/GMRS radios rather than un-certified offshore clones having dubious spectral purity at best. In fact, I'd love to put one of these "Wang Chun" (sic) brands on the bench at work and take some measurements with a spectrum analyzer. I probably won't be all that suprised with what I find... :rolleyes:

Good luck with your search,

'Fly...out

Where can I buy a nice HF radio and am I suppose to program it myself? If it comes preprogram can I reset it thats the part I dont understand and also a gmrs has 22 channels or less whatever but if I get a uhf with 16 channels and people use chan 22 on gmrs, am im in trouble? thanks

Channels are like frequency bookmarks. If you can't type in your frequency, then you are stuck with the stored one in your "channels".

Search this forum, you will find wonderfull thread full of informations on what is the best radio to use. You just bumped a very old thread.

Yes, the better ones are for you to program yourself.

Not much to reset. Think of programing as setting place markers for each frequency that matches frs/gmrs channels. They typically don't come preprogrammed in a sense that it has not saved specific frs/gmrs frequencies.

Ignore 22 Vs 16 channels. What you need to look at is how many channels you can save.

Setup a cheat sheet with all frs/gmrs channel frequencies so that you can key up any frequency other people want to use.

I always have a frequency cheat sheet since I've only saved/programed frs/gmrs base/main channels x-0. Included in my list are subtones or CTCSS as well as NOAA channels.

Anyone getting good results from dual band radios? Trying to find out how well the antenna that comes with these work on VHF and UHF at the same time.

I was told that the VHF version use an antenna tuned for VHF and the UHF tune specifically for UHF.

Antenna length is a massive factor in the effectiveness of a radio.

On another note, unless you have an armature radio license, you should not be operating in the HF/VHF range.... nor any frequency outside of the FRS/GMRS frequencies.

Just curious why you would use that frequency and that CTCSS tone?

Also how do you use the CTCSS tones on these higher end radio's? I have the Motorola HT1250.

Because that's the frequency for FRS channel 14 and the frequency for CTCSS Tone 21.

However, I've heard that frequency assignments for CTCSS may not be identical across manufacturers.

EDIT: Achievement Unlocked - Grave Robber

Ah thanks, that makes sense now, I thought it was Ch Service Frequencies 14-21. Now I have to figure out how to get the Code Freq on my Motorola HT1250. You wouldn't know how would you DustMagnet?

Sorry, I don't.

In my experience, "sub-channels" (CTCSS squelch) is rarely used since it's difficult to set on the fly on many radios: it requires either re-programming a channel with the correct CTCSS frequency, or manually setting the Rx/Tx frequency and CTCSS frequency -- which can lead to errors, specially when trying to change channels in the thick of battle, and transmitting on channels you shouldn't be on.

Additionally, some radios (like Motorolla Sabres) have to be reprogrammed by computer and I think they don't even support CTCSS.




What changes sometimes is the assigned "sub channel" number representing a given CTCSS tone frequency.

Here's a good example of it: http://www.popularwireless.com/codetable.html

So to re-use Morb's orginal example, for some people sub-chan 21 would actually be 22 on their radios. So its important to be aware of your radio's specs.

Okay, DustMagnet mentioned that, I'm going to the Nightfall 2 game and I really hoping they stay simple with frequencies until I can really figure it out. Still need to test it out though.

Thank you both for your input, you both put this more into layman's terms than most articles I have read.

Frequency questions...
 

I know these frequencies are part of the CTCSS frequencies but there are many more which intermingle with the ones listed above, so I ask did you take these from a personal GMRS/FRS radio or is this what you have found most people use here in Canada or at least Ontario.

I have a Motorola HT1250 radio and I'm trying to get it set up. I am having to have it sent out to have it done and the person setting it up needs to know the exact frequencies used otherwise it won't work.

How do you have your radio set up?

Thank you,

CTCSS are tone frequencies, not radio (Rx/Tx) frequencies, i.e., they're literally an [inaudible to human ears] tone being transmitted at the same time as your communication. They're set up by manufacturers, and while certain standards have been adopted by different manufacturers they aren't identical/100% compatible across the board -- which leads to the above example where certain "sub-channels" use different tones depending on brands.

In the case of programmable radios (like Puxing, Linton, etc) CTCSS ton frequencies can be defined directly on the radio (vs. a FRS radio where you can't program anything and you have to use whatever CTCSS tones came with the radio). But as mentioned, I don't see them get used that often anymore cuz they're a PITA and aren't that useful.

Let's be crystal clear right here and right now:

Possession and use of ANY radio apparatus not specifically certified under Industry Canada's RSS-210 (as license-exempt) or under RSS-119 (with a license issued by IC) on FRS/GMRS frequencies is contrary to s.4.1 of the Radiocommunication Act.

The only "approved/legal" radios for FRS/GMRS are indeed those blister-packaged ones you find at Wal-Mart and Cdn. Tire, etc. That being said, it is not practical for IC to go after everyone using one of those imported "amateur-type" radios on the FRS/GMRS allocation. So unless you decide to deviate from those frequencies and go off looking for your own "clear channel" which may in fact not be clear at all and thus quickly attract IC's undivided attention by causing harmful interference to someone else, your chances of getting caught with a non-approved radio strictly on FRS/GMRS are somewhere between slim and none.

Now then...back to your radio:
Your MOT HT1250 radio does not have a front panel program (FPP) option available for it so it MUST be programmed entirely via Motorola's CPS software, which you've stated you have someone doing for you. The problem for you w/respect to CTCSS tones is that along with the FRS/GMRS specific frequencies which need to be placed into the radio's codeplug, you may only specify one out of the available forty-two "PL" (Mot-speak for CTCSS) tones at a time on a per-frequency basis. Unlike amateur radios, of which all these imported Chinese "Kenwood clones" (Woxoun, Puxing, etc.) are, you cannot simply change the CTCSS tone at-will on the fly with your HT1250. It must be pre-programmed for each frequency listed in your codeplug. If you need to change a tone for a particular frequency, you need to have the radio re-programmed. NOT very convenient but...

...Commercial radios intended for the land mobile (non-amateur) service were never authorized by Industry Canada to have direct frequency entry and control of radio programming features such as CTCSS tone select. FRS/GMRS has a slight exception in that CTCSS tones are accessible to the users but the frequencies are "channelized" rather than allowing direct entry. This was done to force responsibility for proper radio provisioning and a significant level of accountability to the regulator onto the radio suppliers. This prevented the largely ignorant (of radio spectrum) radio users from being able to, among other things, arbitrarily dial-in a new operating frequency of their own which obviously would create no end of interference problems for both the regulators and for other licensed users. There are radios where this front panel programming and control capability was part of the design and the radios were certified for use by IC. However, authorization for possession and use of these types of radios was severely restricted and limited to special cases such as public safety, government, etc. Your HT1250 is not among those types of radios.

About CTCSS:
Your assertion that, "...many more intermingle..." belies your lack of understanding or knowledge about two-way radio. Your HT1250 was manufactured by Motorola and as such, will only use CTCSS or PL tones if you prefer Motorola's vernacular, which they support. You can find a list here if you're interested.

AND FINALLY, as Drake has already put it rather well, the manufacturer's differences combined with the inconvenience of programming/changing CTCSS simply out-weighs any real benefit to using it in the context of airsoft games. CTCSS was designed to allow multiple and different users to tx/rx on the same radio frequency without necessarily having to endure each other's transmissions. In airsoft, entire teams are typically assigned a single FRS/GMRS radio channel or set of channels - there's enough available. Therefore, the only people you're going to hear are your own team mates so tone coded squelch becomes rather irrelevant at that point.

Just have your radio guy correctly program the FRS/GMRS frequencies into your radio and leave out the CTCSS tones. You will be happier that way. :D


"Ready...FIRE...aim!"
Fly

Drake and Flyguy, thank you, if this is the case then there is no need for me to put in the CTCSS codes and I will just put in the 22 frequency codes. You are right about my lack of understanding about the whole thing. Which is why it gets difficult in voicing what I am looking for.

So with that, I know my direction and this will allow me to move forward. This radio is only going to be used for airsoft and nothing more. I am not looking to breaking any laws. I just want to play and have fun.

Again, thank you

Let me see if I have this right.
I have my radio set to 13FRS 467.6875 and CTCSS tone set TX 103.5 and RX 103.5
I can only transmit and receive on channel 13FRS 467.6875.
Will I be able to use other channel's or do I have to reset the CTCSS tone.

It depends on the radios: if you're programming channels, then each channel will have its own CTCSS tone assigned (or disabled); if you're in "direct input" mode (arbitrarily tuning frequencies) then the CTCSS tone will usually stay to whatever you set it. Some radios (namely COTS FRS and GMRS radios, as well as a few programmable Chinese versions like the PX-888K) will let you set a CTCSS tone on a stored (programmed) channel (frequency).

So it really depends on your radio:

If you have a FRS/GMRS radio, you'll have a 103.5hz CTCSS tone set on channel 13 but none (or a different one) set on other channels;

If you have a UHF radio and you're manually entering frequencies (rather than using programmed ones) the CTCSS tone will stay set when you change frequencies;

If you have a UHF radio you've programmed, which doesn't allow easy changing of CTCSS frequencies (PX777, Motorola Sabre II, etc) then the channel either has CTCSS set to a given tone from when you programmed it, or it stays off;

If you have a UHF radio you've programmed, which allows you to set CTCSS tones on a programmed channel (PX888 etc), then you'll be able to set a 103.5hz CTCSS tone on channel 13 and it will usually be applied to only channel 13 (i.e. you can set a different one on different channels).

* note I'm citing examples for radios I know: there's a metric buttload of brands/models and I don't know the capabilities of all of em.

The radio Im picking up soon is Wouxun KG-UV1P.
So your telling me I was correct in the use of CTCSS tone and it will be saved to the channel when programmed and leave the other channel's free to use with or with out CTCSS input.
What would happen if I did not set the tone to channel 13 would my transmit bleed over into other channel's. What I like to know when you say sub channel's do you mean the setting on the FRS 1,2,3,4,up to 121 I see on the talk about's and the main channel's 1-22.

Sorry if I sound like a dumb ass but I just started learning about radio's.

Best way to think about this is to completely separate (in your mind) the CTCSS (audio tone) frequency from the (RF) transmit/receive frequency of the radio.

The CTCSS function only controls whether or not your radio's speaker will un-mute in the presence of an incoming transmission having an identical CTCSS tone. Similarly, when you transmit you need to have the identical CTCSS tone as the rest of the folks you wish to talk to or their radios will not un-mute for your transmission. This prevents your "talk group" from hearing other users not in the same group when sharing the same RF tx/rx frequency.

The RF transmit/receive frequency is just as it says...it's the frequency emitted from or received by the radio's antenna. For FRS there are 14 unique frequencies and on the "blister pack" type of radios, they are actually labelled by channel number (1-14) rather than by the actual frequency itself.

The tx/rx frequency is "radio" whereas the CTCSS is "audio" and they serve two distinctly different purposes. Do not confuse the two...

As previously pointed out, the particulars of how to "operate" CTCSS on your radio is largely specific to that radio itself. Some radios will apply your chosen CTCSS tone to all frequencies (unless you turn it off) while others will allow you the flexibility to assign individual tones (can even be different ones) to both the transmit and receive frequencies either in memory channels or on direct entry. This would obviously be a situation where you'd be obliged to RTFM...

Regards,


Fly

Unfortunately the manuals are usually in badly translated English. Maybe not "show vengeful force to the button when electing new lunches" but not black and white either.

I thing the best way to deal with the grey area handhelds is to pick ones that let you either plug into a laptop or physically link to another similar radio to copy the channels over.

Just wondering if the talk about list are the ones that I have to program in. Just got puxing 888 and was looking for help with programming it. and what freq's to put in.

By any chance anyone own a WACCOM WUV5R? The English manual doesn't really help with the programming by hand.

<NOTE: Just found out this walkie talkie is actually a UV-5R. http://hamgear.wordpress.com/2012/04...ng-your-uv-5r/ shows you how to program it.>

I just obtained a Kenwood TH-F6A, and I'm wondering if anyone here knows of and could suggest a military-style whip antennae for it (the long, flat type that folds into sections, such as special operations troops are frequently seen using), and maybe an extension/patch cord for same.

Midland makes the GXT1000, and it is a 5W GMRS radio.
https://www.buytwowayradios.com/prod...-1000-vp4.aspx

Holy necro batman!