Combustion powered airsoft guns - a revolution?
 

While reading "Popular Mechanics Dec 05" during my period two spare, I couldn't help but notice a writeup on the tippmann C-3. Of course who cares about a paintball gun? Exactly! What I do care about is the possible application of combustion in airsoft. Yes I just said combustion.

"Unlike C02 or compressed air, a tiny amount of propane is ignited by a spark plug creating a combustion that propels the paintball out the barrel."

"...and it gets 50,000 shots from one $3 propane tank."

The rest can be found here: http://www.specialopspaintball.com/a...tippmannc3.asp

-Cheese

Damn...
Well, if they can send a bunch of liquid paint trapped by a thin membrane, they can send a small, solid plastic ball.

My thoughts exactly.

-Cheese

Personally, it'll be difficult. Downsizing the mechanism so much, and retaining the realism would be a bit of a chore... plus, it'd have to be pretty well built, in case of any 'mishaps' happening to the less intelligent players, or the more intelligent but too curious ones.
However, sounds like a great concept. Time to put MadMax's work even furthur.

i got to play around with the c-3 a couple of months ago. pretty cool. it makes a big BANG when fired. and 50,000 shots on a propane bottle isn't bad either. it would be interesting to see if someone can make a full-auto ignition system that could be used without flame shooting out of the barrel (cool nonetheless) or without any timing/premature ignition problems, etc. as the c-3 is a pump-action, only sinlge shot so no timing issues there. but he applications for airsoft with a loud and powerful and cheap-to-run gas automatic rifle would have my vote.

Yeah I don't think I would be interested in using some cheap CGBB (C=combustion - yes I first coined the phrase) considering the potential for destruction. If this technology were to be used it would need to be high quality or nothing.

-Cheese

...and yes the potential seems awesome

Ah...
Maruzen M500's my first bet. There's at least some space, a giant resevoir, full-metal and lots of rounds to shoot.
Damn, that'd be great...

for those who dont know how a C3 works...
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/7...nnc33mr8za.gif
credit goes to "Meph" @ PbN

Hahahaha! I like the nuke bit, really...
Anyways, it's a great idea. I want to see it tried out... I'd go with Maruzen M500, still. Looks like it'd work.

Okay so when do we blow up...erm "test" our first M500?

-Cheese

Already there:

http://www.airsoftmechanics.com/phpB...d858b9ea512401

As soon as someone's crazy enough to rip apart theirs, add one of these and pray it won't explode.
Give me an M500, and I'll do it :)

Full auto might not be too doable becaue of the heat generated from rapid fire. thats why this un is pump action and not even semi. Although think of the aplication for snipers and shotguns. you could have the easy of use of a gas bolt action sniper without having to worry about temperature and your velocity should be allot more stable. I this this could be a huge step forward for bolt action sniper rifles

To combat the heating issue there would need to be multiple smaller chambers which empty into each other, and possibly some Cu or Al cooling fins.

-Cheese

Hmm... sounds difficult, but doable. It'd take time, though, and I'd expect these to run at about 700 dollars for a full mechanism...
However, if someone could get this done and sell it to a company...

I've got an m500 running on propane... but it'll be a cold day in hell when you get to add flame to the equation...

*kisses his baby*

I like the idea.
The heat factor would have to be dealt with like on a real firearm. So no cheap plastics.

This idea sounds tres cool. I say we draw up some specs and gets some engineers to start this new revolution of airsoft guns. It would probably take a few years to make a good prototype that won't burn up or anything, but just think about the riches.

I've pondered this idea for a while now. I thought it would be neat to make a very simple, small and touch mechanism that would fit into a copy of a mechbox shell. It would operate similar to a real gun if my fantasy of hooking it up with the cocking lever/handle and using the ejection port to help blast of exhaust and heat would some how come true. I was thinking, a small removable gas canister in the size of your average large, mini and stick batteries that would be stored in the same place and hook up to the mechbox in the same way as electric internals do. Now of course, alot of people have already taken the "best" route and have bought plastic TM guns. I'm sure we wouldn't be seeing to many a' TM guns sold if this were completed.

Hmm, maybe my mind gets little too creative.

So...other than getting 50K shots from a $3 tank, what advantages would there really be?

there are very few moving parts elementry mechanical engineering principles tell us that the less moving parts the less complex the device, that equates into a greater Mean rounds between failure rate. something that typical airsoft guns have a problem with presently. This could be the wave of the future, if the heat disapation factor can be addressed, having said that there are lots of ways to counter act that.

I don't think it would be a good idea due to the fact then "the man" would try to classify airsoft as a firearm and then we'd be all out throwing bb's at each other. As soon as you combust a propellant ,to "fire" a "projectile", I'm betting things would be worse then better for us as a community.

bingo. the minute the general sheeple hear that your "imitation army gun" uses explosivess they will freak and you can bet those guns will fall under firearm registration.

Nonetheless I have read some reviews of the C3 and it is definetly interesting. For us who sometimes paintball in the winter, the C3 is definetly better than using co2.

There are precidents already set for butane powered devices like nailguns. They don't exceed the muzzle energy or FPS limits so they're not firearms. Neither are gunpowder propelled nail drivers.

Intentionally burying an idea because of what someone else might think about it is insane, in my humble opinion.

Damn, I wonder how many good ideas just vanish because of shit like that.

Anyhow, the attitude should be "it can be done, we just haven't figured out how yet..."

The main advantages woule be you could use it in lower temp, the velocity would be more regulated, and propane is available at any corner store so it brings the game to people who don't have access to a c02-nitro-HPA fill station. People who live in remote area could order paint and the guns online anf just buy propane canisters instead of possibly driving hours to find a c02 fill. I can deffinatly see a market for this.

The "BANG" "whreee" or even 'pop' of a gbb is also nifty

I'm sold. When can I get this that shoots 6mm and comes in the shape of an AK?

there are factors which prevent a low pressure propane (combustion starting from 1atm) from fitting into an airsoft replica. Pball guns can tolerate big expansion chambers which look goofy in an airsoft gun. You just can't scale them down unless you're willing to tackle some really difficult problems like developing an airtight seal which opens on detonation and can handle 1967C.

I actually did build some proof of concept airsoft propane combustion chambers a year or two ago. If you want to read up on a summary of work from that era of abandoned enterprise:

http://www.airsoftmechanics.com/phpB...t=181&start=15

It's just not possible to get rapid flame propagation in a low pressure combustion setup that's slender enough to fit into an airsoft replica. Unless you're willing to make a Pancor Jackhammer which already looks like a pball gun.

And there MadMax comes in and saying smart thing kills our dreams.... as usuall. DAMN YOU SCIENCE!

Interesting, but... how would the hopup deal with the heat? And what would the velocity be?
Using a different propellant method that involves ignition may also place the airsoft in a different 'weapon' category the moment some twit at CFC looks at it and thinks he/she has to meddle.

Hop up is a tough one to call. Silicone rubbers are pretty good at handling high temperature. In industry, silicone is often used for high temp applications. Unfortunately the flame front can get pretty damn hot. Well beyond what silicone rubber can handle. I thought about a way to spoot in a drop or two of oil into the sealing area with every shot to provide a film barrier which was sacrificial to protect elastomer parts. The idea was to keep them wetted so the liquid would absorb heat with firing cycles and keep the rubber part temps down. But then you get into barrel fouling not to mention the potential generation of carcinogenic/stinky crap with each shot.

I think we kind of suffer from being potentially described in an AOW kind of category as it is already, but I can see how burning stuff doesn't help assuage soccermom fears.

The only advantage this has is to replace GBB sidearms and shotguns, really. The velocity isn't anything to shout about according to that page, and neither is the 4 rounds a second. It wouldn't effect rifles since they gun off rechargeable batteries anyway, plus it said it was a pump-action only mechanism. Its too much trouble to go to just so you can say "my gun is one step closer to the real thing."

If it really costs the $700 quoted earlier to make this, you can go buy a real gun!

News flash people: airsoft guns are already considered firearms under the Criminal Code because they are a barrelled weapon that discharges a shot or projectile, however they are exempt from most restrictions because of their low muzzle velocity and energy. The CCC and Firearms Act say absolutely nothing about combustion or fire being necessary for a weapon to be classified as a firearm; many spring or gas powered pellet rifles are registered firearms because they can shoot 800 fps.

With the 5.7 Joule limit added to the regulations, we can push a 0.2g to 785.5 fps before we have to register our airsoft guns. I doubt anyone will be gaming with something that fast.

That's nothing, I just spent double that on a stock AEG. I'd also like to see how you plan on gaming with a real gun.

I know what you mean. A friend of mine was considering playing airsoft but when he saw the cost he decided to get a real gun for a lot less.

I didn't mean you could game with a real gun, though it would be interesting. Overcrowded prisons? No big deal, set the convicts out into the forest and give the members of this forum rifles and a licence to kill. :duke:

I cant image how neat it would be on my M24.....

riiiight.... 8-O :smack:

Hop up is a non issue...I think. Something similar to the tippmann flatline barrel could be incorporated.

"The Flatline barrel is curved slightly, and the inside has a course texture, in order to put a backspin on the paintball."

-Cheese

A grooved barrel, like the real deal or pellets guns could be good too. Won't give you range, but will keep acuracy to a acceptable standard.

Like Madmax said the combustion chamber takes space, but is that really an issue?

Many guns have a full stock version, which is known and if you're willing to have an external system (Just toss it in a bag on your back with a hose), then couldn't the combustion chamber be lodged in the stock?

When we're using this kind of system, we really have no reason for a big battery, although a small one for loading the BBs and sparking the gas would be an idea.

Could this not be possible? Madmax?

Not to mention the combustion chamber could be made much smaller in an airsoft gun as it has far less mass to push. A full stocked rifle may be able to utilize a reservoir the size of a GBB mag and get a full day's worth of gaming on it, and squeeze the combustion chamber in next to it no?

But they don't LOOK like guns really either. My point was that we've enough trouble with our guns as it is....having them combust propane to fire a projectile is one huge step in the wrong direction....

If our guns looked like paintball guns, or nail guns then I don't think it would be an issue but...as it stands ( IMO ) if we started to have airsoft guns that "fired" bb's through a combustion process we would see our sport banned much faster.

That is correct, but I'm talking about how politicians and policy makers will twist the facts, airsoft is in a bad state now as they are evil black guns....I think making them even more like guns would be a very bad idea.

Doesn't look like anyone did any reading -

There are physical reasons why the combustion chamber cannot be shrunk, unless it's drastically altered, and likely in a way that doesn't really do anything practical or functional in terms of making it more "airsoft friendly".

Madmax explained that. You can't generate the same conditions as in the Tippmann C3 on a smaller scale just by shrinking all the parts. At least, that's the way I read it.

Other alternatives might be other fuel sources, or a redesign, but those are both good reasons to say "Wow.. the C3 is a neat idea, but it doesn't really do anything for us ... " :hammer:

I still think walking away from new ideas for reasons like that is a way worse step in the wrong direction... (sorry - double post)

Sorry Mysteryfish...I edited my post to add my reasoning and you posted after.

I personally like the idea, but think it would be a mistake to implement it unless things change with Airsoft for the better first.

No need to apologize, it wasn't a personal attack on you, just a general statement about why it's good to at least expand on new ideas before shutting them down for "political reasons".

Anyhow, if it WERE plausible at this point, there could still be a functioning prototype system that looked nothing like a gun, that could show it worked...

It's also valid for you to bring up the point that implementing and demonstrating the concept could be cause for bad publicity, because you're not trying to shut this thread down and close our brains. Just keeping things on track, yea? So ... it's cool! (Not that you need my approval)

Oh, also - so, can someone confirm this? :

I was under the impression that the C3 fired by having the combustion move a piston and compress air, and that it wasn't actually the exhaust gasses firing the projectile. Now, I see that interesting animated GIF file, which indicates a totally different mechanism.

Which one is it? And what about building a combustion system which uses the combustion in lieu of a spring to move a piston head.

Or... How about magnets? I love magnets...

Obviously one cannot take the Tippman design and reverse engineer it into an airsoft gun. I wasn't suggesting that. The reason it should be appealing to airsofters is because it provides a report when fired, which is something AEGs lack. Since the entire point of airsoft versus paintball is more realism, one would think such a development is a large step forward. Given a choice between an AEG and a combustion powered gun of the exact same type but double the price, I'd go with the latter without hesitation.

Speaking of not reading, 50,000 shots on a $3 tank of propane. Do the math.

You can keep your electric power, but just build in a small selanoid into your gun with a propane tank on a remote line... and just vent the gas out the ejector or through a little nozzle under the barrel. You'll still get a loud kind of pop but you'll retain your electric power. I think that would be neat. It will also mask the mouse-sex noise an AEG already makes.

I know that companies use propane powered machineguns in movies to save on the cost of blanks (saving private ryan for example)

Was it loud when that one flew mere inches over your head :innocent:

Just kidding.

But seriously. I think you missed the point. (WK)

Unless you meant "a combustion design of some sort, that doesn't use propane"

(since it's been outlined already that in the type of confinement typically an issue with replica-sized guns, the use of propane in any sort of practical combustion mechanism isn't workable. (with the current system in question. ahem).

Because in that case (which I mentioned) it might be plausible, but like I said, the tippmann C3 design doesn't do much for airsofters. Something that WOULD would probably (as mentioned... by me) have to be ENTIRELY different. So... No, I very much understand the implications of 50,000 shots from a $3 can of propane. But it doesn't implicate anything for airsofters, given what we've learned by reading this thread :confused: :confused: :confused:

Riiiiiiight? Gawd. How come we keep arguing about this crap WK? Can't we just agree that we're usually talking about different things :nod:

It's all YOUR fault! I hate you! Wanna fight!?!? :rrr: :smack:

;)

hahahahahhaha


i also like Penguin's idea to make the guns louder. or even like caps or something.....i know this is moving off the thread's topic, but still.

Maybe it shouldnt be made for Airsoft.... but instead, LAUNCHERS

They are big enough, it would be cool to see someone pull out an Rpg-7 or a Predator and shoot a big nerf ball out ( or something else i guess )

Now THAT'd be legal. ;)
Does the 5.7 J rule apply to launchers as well? I just have a hard time thinking that could be legal... Also, now that I'm thinking, wouldn't the heat on the BB deform it a fair bit? Or make it expand? Leaving a residue on the inner barrel and hampering your accuracy, after a while jamming the barrel and causing access pressure that COULD potentially send your gun to hell as well as sending some shrapnel in a few different directions?

I'm not sure if there would be enough prolonged heat on the BB to cause it to reach its melting temperature. After all, it leaves the barrel quite quickly, does it not? You may have bigger issues with the barrel heating up, if you've got a full auto combustion gun.

Right. I meant that when I said expanding... as well as the BB... er... in all my rambling I was bound to miss something.

There is definatly an upside if this ever works. You would no longer have problems with your GBB in cooler weather.

Just a thought

- Quantis

It is possible, it could work on a simple principle sort of like a gas valve similar to the type on a pulsejet engine (i have built some before)

Here is one concept I thought of while reading this post.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s_83/PIGBB.jpg

As you can see though that the temperatures would now allow this design to be a fully automatic weapon because the heat generated would melt a plastic ball to the barrel, the balls in the loading unit would also melt from the heat.

The reason a paintball is not affected by the heat is because of the liquid content inside, however if the C3 was a fully automatic weapon this would quickly change.
How you ask, well think of it this way, youre camping out by the fire pit, take 2 styrofoam or plastic cups and fill one with water, put them both on the flame and see which one gives away first.
The membrane of the cup with water in it is cooled down by the liquid inside therefore the flashpoint of that cup is much higher than the cup with nothing in it. the C3 works because the oils and food coloring insice the plastic capsule cool the capsule enough so it does not melt, and since liquid has a higher boiling point than plastics flachpoint the membrane stays cooled down enough to get the ball out without any melting.

If the C3 was automatic then the heat generated by constand auto fire would be so high that the metal chamber and breech would be red hot, this would damage any paintball or plastic airsoft ball that would sit there when you took your finger off the trigger.

I vote we stick to AEG's, they are just as practical and charging a battery is cheaper than a $3 propane tank, they make no heat and well...face it, they work.

I agree it would be cool to have a more realistic gun but this would require a non heat gas operation, so you'd be going back to an auto GBB which is much less practical than an AEG because youre limited to one of 2 things, a small amount of gas resulting in less shots and crappy FPS or a hose coming out of the gun.

realism, simple mechanism, cheap ammo and power souces, safety.

you need a balance between these, and airsoft is simple mechanism, realism except for the sound, cheap and SAFE. Getting a compromised airsoft gun just for getting a big BANG?

IF everyone just want a realistic sound, we should improve on soundmaker, not compromizing safety.

The impuse engine is a neat idea. I don't know if it's possible to get the expansion to also flush the combustion chamber without an additional large area valve somewhere on your chamber.

The nozzle acts as a check valve only allowing gas flow forward. You'd need a low cracking pressure large area valve on either the left or right end of the chamber. You can probably get away with a thin shim of steel flapped over some 3/16" ports. The explosion would push the shim pretty shut, but when the nozzle valve checks shut the steel flaps would open up and let fresh air in.

Unfortunately you'd have to wait for the chamber to cool down and the gases to contract to draw in fresh air and a measured injection of propane. Without an open airflow, either the straight through or the U shaped jet path, I don't think you can get quick enough recharge of fresh air.

The idea then, could work very well, I would imagine, for BA sniper rifles, which would be awesome.

If we rule out full auto or even semi combustion powered weaponry, we're still left with two groups of weapons.

-Sniper Rifles (bolt action)
-Shotguns

The added power of combustion might allow for shotguns to easily fire large amounts of BBs for each pump - something alone which would push me to buy a shotgun.

The possibilites for sniper rifles are self explanatory.

-Cheese

So, did this idea die on the 24th of December, or is the Canadian airsoft community going to attempt to take advantage of it in some way?

Looks like we left off with Cheesevillage's intelligently-dedused-from-the-facts-stated-previously-in-this-thread comment:

Sorry, but I lust for this too much to just watch it go to waste when I KNOW there are brilliant minds on this board that could definatly turn this concept into a reality.

...SO DO IT! :tup:

:cheers:

It did die, then you had to go digging it up...

mirage13 while the concept may be possible, the feasability of it isn't. By the time you have some one like MadMax make a gun for you you could have bought 10 AEGs or more.