Assembling Systema M4A1 PTW
 

Has anyone bought and assembled one of these kits? Given the high price of a ready assembled one the kits look very attractive.

1) How hard is it?
2) How long does it take
3) Any special tools needed?

I have asembled one a few days ago, overall its not anything hard to do if you know how to read instructions and take your time.

The only tools I would recomend is a small set of pin punches, A good soldering gun or station , A vise with some rubber scraps to protect the finish of the reciver. Some hex tools and thats about it...

If you are not experienced with soldering you might want to get a pro to solder the motor connections.


Haveing done one I would probaly do a other one


HOWEVER after useing my systema for the first time it broke down on me with a weird problem, Im not sure what the problem is but im not done diagnosing it either , I just hope its not my fault.


EDIT: Problem was the motor adjustemnt screw I took it out as it serves no purpose.

$2000 vs. $2500.....thats only 125%, quite a small bit if you ask me. I have a SCK on the way but do plan on buying a second PTW eventually and will definitely be getting a ready assembled one.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Buy it assembled and it will work out of the box. Build it yourself and your own skills (or lack thereof) can and will play a huge part in it's performance.

Personally, I think it was the worst decision Systema ever made to sell do-it-yourself PTWs. But, there's no way that they could meet demand if they had to build them all.

In the end, if you have trouble, it will cost you parts (Systema does not warranty the kits in any country and there's no warranty on PTWs at all in Canada) that would have eaten up the cost difference to buy it assembled (and QC'd and tested at the factory).

If you're already spending $2000 on the gun and another $1000 or more in mags, batteries, cylinder kits, rails, etc., spend the extra $500 and buy it assembled.

it's a pretty intimidating project but all things considered it's not all that hard. i disagree with mcguyver about the performance issue. with systemas i find they work consistently mediocrely (but very reliably) or not at all. the only thing i can see you screwing up during the install would be serious bungles that would result in a fubared gun and easily prevented if you take your time, don't be drunk or retarded and pay attention to the manual. if you look at the instructions:
http://www.systema-europe.com/Files/Assembly_Manual.pdf
you'll see there is a tools list at the end. also, all of the newer ptw kits (6.04mm barrels) have pre-assembled barrels/hopups and mechboxes. some even have preassembled cylinders depending on which kit you buy.

I just built one this weekend, took about 3 hours, super easy to do

I have archived in my PMs here at least 100+ PMs from guys who assembled kits, had problems immediately after or within a couple of months. I know of only 1 guy who had a MAX EL-003 fail by using the wrong battery. This gun is different from anything out there. If you run into problems, you may be able to figure it out, or maybe not. But if you have to order parts, you'll be getting them easiest from the U.S..

I can see the appeal to kit if you are buying a Gen 3 and you are paying $1000. If you are paying $2000 for a MAX kit, it's foolish in my opinion to cheap out for $500.

If you can't float the whole amount for an assembled gun and all the accesories you need in 1 shot, you shouldn't buy a PTW. Because if you have a motor or electronics failure, you will have to fork out many hundreds for replacement parts. And if you have no more money, then you will have a gun that's dead in the water.

The choice is yours. I made mine (twice) and have had zero problems at all. Not one. How many kit owners have had issues?

I think it's like anything. If you are mechanically inclined you won't have a problem. I assembled mine with 0 issues, but a friend of mine who assembled his has had problems.

It's up to you. Like mac says, if you are willing to pay a little extra to have it assembled you'll greatly lessen the chance of something gettting frigged up during assembly.

$2000 (M4 MAX kit) vs. $2100 (M16A3 MAX burst) if we are talking A&A here. I scratched my head on that one, since most people are going to do a ton of RS mods on the gun anyways, didn't make much sense to save the $100. Sadly, the last one now sold as of this weekend. Still, having now owned and gamed with one, having one side by side when constructing would make the process much easier, seriously crammed mechbox.

Still, when it comes to getting one, if the kit is the only available one of the type you are dying to get, might as well give it a try... You can also blow a little bit on replacement parts.

-Daes

If I'm not mistaken, a great deal of what makes systema products kick so much ass is the amount of QC that goes into their products. By assembling the gun yourself, your basically throwing away a good part of what makes a systema product a systema product.

Like pivot and mcguyver says, it's all up to you. If you think your the 1337 m3ch4n1c, then go for it... just as long as you don't complain when things go wrong.

It's just like with normal AEG's. Not everyone can build one, so why would everyone be able to put together a Systema, which is more complex?

Funny thing is, it's the most complex electric gun out there by a long shot, yet it's the easiest to assemble, by a long shot. But any problems during this "easy" assembly can and will cost you real "easy" yet "complex" dollars.

I still think that Systema should never have made kits available. Many retailers in the U.S. and Europe either won't sell them, sell them pre-assembled (for a fee) or tell the customer "don't come back if it doesn't work"-sort-of-thing.

If you buy one from MadMax and he gives you the option of assembling it for you, take it, even if you have to pay a tiny bit extra. He's no dummy and you'll get the gun in working order as soon as you open the box.

AFAIK, he hasn't sold any non-assembled kits, for the reasons you listed.

This is what I read just today:

I'm pretty sure Kevorkian is comparing buying it pre-assembled from AI to buying an unassembled kit from another retailer.

I'm not sure, but the way he says it leads one to think that Mr. C built it for him.

I'm not saying that AI's not doing the assembling, but that everything they're selling is in one piece.

AI did not do all of the assembly.

Manchovie gun repair was contracted to assemble the PTWs under the supervision of AI. While Manchovie is a mechanically sound airsmith, he did need some assistance with electrical matters. All of the 3rnd burst options were done by me as well as electrical and bb feeding toubleshooting.

We were unfortunately quite disappointed with the low plug and playability of these kits. We experienced an over 40% failure rate in the SCKs despite ESD measures. Luckily most of them were effectively troubleshot leaving only one electronics set defunct. Mechanical issues were most common in Gen3 kits.

Electrical issues were traced to bad solder traces, or defective optical sensors. The most common mechanical problem was that the mag catch held the magazine too high in the mag well.

While it is common practice in the military to slap a mag in to assure that the catch has engaged, this training is not prevalent amongst airsofters (myself included). The over tight mag catch occasionally dropped magazines. Decisively stuffing a mag in would reliably engage the catch, but the catches held the mag windows so high that feeding issues arose in nearly every PTW (bb chop). The high engagement caused a slight misalignment which affected the reliability of bb feeding.

Light removal of material from the area directly over the engagement surface alleviated this issue consistently. Heavy removal of material at the beveled lead in on the catch greatly reduced the force required to push past the catch. Modified catches were comparatively luxurious in rapid mag changes and the reduction in bb chopping was a critical improvement.

A catestrophic failure occured with one Gen3 PTW early in it's life cranking a M110 cyl'. Despite careful assembly, the piston rack somehow pushed forward out of the piston. At some point, the upwards pointing section broke off and siezed the gearbox. When this occured, the mechbox abruptly stopped making no severe sounds. Pulling the trigger caused two small "tic" sounds spaced by about a second. The user tried firing a couple times and handed the gun to me for diagnosis. On the second or third trigger pull, it dawned on me that the box was seized and that pulling the trigger more was a really bad idea. QD takedown immediately showed that the piston assembly had failed. Still the gun would function on full auto with a replacement cylinder assembly. Semi auto for some reason turned into 5rnd burst. It became apparent that the optical gate was damaged and that the motor was timing out instead of being shut off by the opto electronics. If no gate signal is detected, the motor is shut off after an arbitrary time delay by the control cct. This PTW was repaired by replacing the optical assembly with an optical gate scavenged from an EL-001 which had a kaput processor. Sadly the fuse did not protect the EL-001. In fact it had only partially melted but continued to conduct.

I'm particularly happy with the 3rnd burst improvement I worked out. I sourced a tiny switch from the DigiKey catalogue which was temporarily tape sealed for wave soldering and assembly purposes. It was soldered to the appropriate terminals and glued directly to the EL-001 unit between boards alongside the 4 conductor cross connector. After the glue cured, the seal was removed to access the switch tab.

Including the 3rnd option in this way saved us from routing a wire around the gearbox to be possibly chomped by the receiver on closure. It saved hiding a switch in the limited space too.

Madmax, you never cease to amaze me with your skills and knowlege in so many diffent aspects its just mindblowing!

Uh.

A lot (LOT) of burnt fingers, lost eyebrows, ovaled bushings, and ringing ears.

I've learned that as much as I've learned, mother Nature is always there to bitch slap me and rhetorically ask me what I was thinking.

For me, product development is a painfull accumulation of "know how NOT" instead of "know how". Almost every one of my practical solutions survives about 15 relatives who were equally convincing in my minds eye of the physical world.

You know, I've often wondered if the keep the best electronics and parts for the assembled guns, and give the slightly off-spec stuff to the kits. In Europe, they buy "B" and "C" grade PTWs, usually because they have cosmetic or casting flaws. The receivers are stamped inside the magwell according to grade. I mean, I don't work in the factory, so who knows?

But I can tell you that rarely have I seen an assembled gun fail (once in fact), and alot of kits fail. Do they have these failures at the factory with assembled guns, then fix them with the appropriate parts, at the same rates that the kits fail. Systema engineers and technicians can't fix your kit for you when you live in Saskatchewan or anywhere other than Japan. You may have bought an assembled gun that had major failures at the factory, but you'd never know because Systema fixed the problem.

Just like when you go and buy a brand new car. It could have horribly failed QC at the factory, but you'll never know that as it's fixed before it gets to you. That alone makes the extra cost justified.

Nice idea for the 3-burst switch, Max. Most guys stuff it wherever they can.

I wondered the very same. Unfortunately I think SystemA charges a significant price difference because their troubleshooting period is commersurately troublesome.

I can't see them releasing different grades of electronics though. The defective electronics assemblies that I had would have easily been caught with a good diagnostics setup. The circuit complexity isn't like a Pentium processor which can be benchmarked and sorted into Celeron or Xeon branches.

The only place I can find for fine tuning is with the switch transistors. The power FETs could be tested and matched for on time to reduce the instantaneous load on the particularly fast one out of the quad. However, the lack of a diagnostics check, before assembly or packaging makes me doubt that SystemA is going to bother with that. It's not really necessary anyways since all of the FETs are operating well within their currenty capacity.

Luckily the issues I came across were pretty consistent across SCKs. I have a feeling that SystemA has a SOP for assembly which automatically deals with most of the problems we poor shits get to find on our independant learning curves.

Again, this what I don't understand. When you get a kit at U.S. retail, it's only $250 difference to the posted retail at the same retailer for it's assembled counterpart. I know all the crap about importing in Canada, but is Systema giving that much more incentive (cost-wise) to buy the kit over the assembled version. I mean, they don't have to deal with failed parts once the kit leaves them. But on the retail end (even when I bought mine) was only $350 difference from Gen 3 kit to MAX assembled and $150 from MAX kit to assembled version. It just didn't make sense to save $300 on 2 guns.

Even now, having owned and used them exclusively for this whole season and seeing what I've seen from the kits, it's a really hard pill for me to swallow to buy the kit. Even at $500 difference, I can't justify it.

LOL! What makes you think Systema cares about its customers? They make more money on the kits and its less trouble for them. I see (and i'm sure its the same for them) why they should care if the kits are of lesser grade/quality? It's all about money. If they make more money out of the kits, their yah go. Even if they are flawd, they don't care as long they make their money.

As for me, as soon i get a PTW it will be pre-assembled at Systema's and checked by them. I'm not taking any chances on a +$2000 gun. It's stupid to try and save $200-$300 out of something that cost a couple grande. It's like... you buy a Porsche and stick those cheap chinese tires on it... for what? Save $2000 out of $60000? lol

More like $100,000, but yeah, I can see where you're coming from.

Madmax, if I am not mistaken, you have also mentioned tuning and fooling around with the PTW hop-up. A 3-round burst mod is "relatively" simple but what can be done to the hop-up to "pimp" it out some more? Is it machining intensive, or a simple job?

-Daes

Hmm base porsche cost 60 grande, maybe even a bit less. The 100k+ are the upper one's like a Porsche 1911 GT2. Then again those prices are base from the Porsche Dealership in New York thats 5 minutes from my house (ahh the Friday nights i spent there hehe).

So far I haven't done all that much. I find the stock HU to be too stiff. The thickness of the rubber sleeve is quite thin. This makes the HU adjustment pretty sensitive. A small change in adjusment results in a large change in force applied to the BB because the stiff wire inside the sleeve bears down so hard.

I've been goofing around with a larger silicone rubber sleeve pulled over the stock on. This more than doubles the thickness of the sleeve. Anecdotally this seems to make the adjustment a little less sensitive.

Still I find the HU less consistent than my P90. I suspect that the sleeve is sometimes twisting when the pellet wipes past. This would have the effect of applying less HU if the sleeve turns than if it sticks stationary.

Other than that, I haven't done much. I think there isn't much that can be done without casting another rubber shape to be pulled by the current HU clamp. I've got 2 component rubbers, but no time to pursue this development.

the hop is applied to the beeb by way of a sprung bar with a roller on it, when a bb passes under it, the roller gives it topspin. i'm not sure what they were thinking, a soft roller on a pin will twist, but not a consistent amount every time. i'm guessing this was so as to not apply wear on only one side of the roller thus eventually chopping through, which is kindof against systema's intentions of making a very low maintenance training rifle.

i found that several of the systemas i've come across had wonky rollers. the outer face of the tube shaped roller was not parallel to the inner surface and so it sat on a bit of a wonk (technical term please?) and spun beebs slowly alternating between sides as the roller made its way around the pin. on one particular one the pin actually not only had the roller sitting on an angle but i also couldnt get it engaging with enough hopup to send a bb any more than 40ft at 370fps. pathetic.

this was fixed by taking an aeg hop bucking (the small bit) and stretching it over the roller. this squeezed a bit of the wonk out of it, added more hop, and caused it to grip the pin harder. the gun shot much more accurately after, and with good range but still not as good as my m14. i wouldnt recommend this mod if you have too much hop (heard of this issue too, but havent experienced it) or if your systema's shooting just slightly looser groupings than a tm. reality of the situation is that it'll never shoot as well, not without a more consistent hop design.

Inside hole was not coaxial with outer cylindrical surface.

Concentric cylinders share the same central axis. Some of these rollers had bent inner bores.

Actual hands on experience
 

I was going to post this as a seperate thread but this seems to fit in with the original question (at least more than discussions about base level Porsches anyway :confused: ):

First off....I'm not what you would call a handyman but I'm generally not intimidated by challenges (or I'm at least confident in my ability to overcome them) so I decided to order the Systema PTW M4A1 Challenge kit. This is essentially my first AEG so it's important to note that I've never worked with a mechbox of any kind, nor have I spent any amount of time assembling or reassembling AEG's.

All told, it took me 4 hours to assemble my kit. At no point did I feel like it was "game over". There was nothing overwhelming. I just plugged away on my coffee table while watching TV.

My thoughts/observations:

-At first glance, the assembly manual is slightly intimidating as it includes instructions for assembling intricate things like your cylinder, mechbox, as well as other things like charging handle and stock. These instructions are misleading as these parts are already fully assembled for you right from the factory. Essentially, the hardest parts are already done for you.

-Assembly is easy enough for pretty much anyone. My reasoning being that anyone can place a spring in a hole and tap a pin in with a punch. Anyone can thread wires through a hole. Anyone can thread a nut. There's nothing difficult in those tasks and they really do comprise the majority of the assembly work. In all fairness, the hardest part by a long shot is soldering a couple of wires to the motor - but that was nothing compared to soldering chips on Xbox's and Wii's. I just took my time and moved slowly.

-In terms of quality, It's not really an issue of paying extra for Systema's quality control in the assembly process. As I mentioned above, the key parts (mechbox, motor, and cylinder) are already assembled for you. It's important to keep in mind that there is only one way that the inner barrel will fit. There's only one way that the mechbox will go in. You can tell right away if the stock is upside down. Etc etc. There isn't much that you can do wrong. I'm sure that there is some way that you could impact the performance if you tried really hard but I'm drawing a blank right now as to what that would be.

I should also add that I unexpectedly (I'm not a very patient person by nature) ended up using extra care and attention assembling mine because it was just that: mine . I ended up making sure everything was perfect because I shelled out $2K of my hard earned money for it and I'm pretty sure I care more about it that the assembly line worker who puts together 10 of these a day. Just a guess. I won't argue that point.

-The argument that $500 isn't much when compared to the entire package isn't the the right way to look at it. That's still $500 of my money. $500 is still money that I can spend on accessories, booze, whatever I want.

In the end, my experience was so positive that I can/will do this again if/when I get another AEG. I saved money, got to tinker with some interesting hardware, and now have the added benefit of knowing the basics of how my gun works. For a cost of what? 4 hours that I was going to probably spend watching cartoons anyway...

All this talk of Systema PTWs makes it really tempting to buy one. If I sold every gun I own, I maybe could afford it. Dang you all! I just want to be content!

Not saying that all SCK are bad but what if you got a defective part out of the box? would you have the tools, knowledge, parts to test and diagnose that issue? Most people don't.
I just bought my SCK a weeks ago, completed the job, fired it once and it stopped working. After hours of checking over everything I decided to replace the electronics (at my cost) thinking i fried something completing the burst mod. New parts came and sure enough, not working still. Finally i borrowed someone elses 490a motor, and its working. So it looks like I had a bad motor. I have heard of guys that get solder in the motor but I was extra careful when soldering to the point of even removing the brush hats off to solder the power leads.
Moral of my story is, sure I saved $500 on the SCK but after replacing the electronics at270 and now likely buying another motor (although Mark is awesome with this and its trying to help me out), I haven't saved anyhting really if you include my time. and the worst part I still am not using my PTW cause the motor is out and I am not sure when its going to be up and running.
I wouldn't recommend a kit to anyone, its not worth it for me anyways. The assembly is easy enough but if anything goes wrong, your SOL here in Canada.

Agreed
 

That is an accurate assesment and I tend to agree with your points with the added line: Only you can decide what you believe is an unacceptable risk for you.

My feeling is that there is a chance of a faulty part no matter what AEG you buy. Someone who plays it safe and buys a TM from a retailer only to have it "stop working" isn't in much better shape (I guess I am assuming no warranty) than the person who has the same problem with their challenge kit. Plenty of people buy used AEG's for a cost savings far lower than $500 so it's a matter of opinion whether or not the savings is worth the risk.

If I believed that there would be a problem out of the box there is no way I would have gone forward. Obviously I think the risk is minimal. In t his case I was right which reinforces my opinion. YMMV.

If you're the kind of person who, for example, always buys the extended warranty "just in case" then the SCK probably isn't for you. Not because you couldn't assemble it but because you have decided that the risk associated with it isn't tolerable.

Nothing wrong with that either.

I put mine together on the weekend and the assembly is easy. Like you said, take your time and don't rush. I was worried about the soldering but I practiced on a spare piece of metal so when I did it there was little worry.

I played it the next day and after 5 mags it would not fire anymore bb's. I took it apart and ended up finding a problem inside the cylinder with the piston. Since this is from the factory having the assembled version would not have helped.

Luckily for me I contacted Wallace and sent him some photos-he is sending me a new cylinder so I can't thank him enough for the above & beyond customer service since there is no such thing has warranty in the airsoft world.

It sucks to pay the extra 500 but maybe there is a reason for this price. If you look on the PTW forum the only people asking for help are the guys with the SCK kits.

On a side note-firing off those 5 mags was nice. The rate of fire and sound is almost scary.

Sucks to hear about your cylinder.

As you said, it was assembled from the factory and were able to fire off 5 mags so obviously this one would have passed QC. Challenge kit or not, that just as easily could have happened with a pre-built gun.

I really don't want to sound so evangelistic for the challenge kit, mostly because I know I'm going to jinx my good experience. The second I finish tying this and go home, I know something will go wrong :(

The other thing to note is that there is definitely going to be a greater volume of people on the Systema boards having problems or asking questions about their challenge kits just due to the fact that there is assembly required. Call it a squeaky wheel, chalk it up to the fact that people don't generally post about things that just work or sometimes it's easier to post than it is to read the instructions a couple of times......whatever.

Sell somebody a toaster that requires you to insert a pin before it will work and there will be a 4000% increase in support requests ;)

Anyway, hope things work out with your cylinder.