PTW MP5
 

just wondering how many people will get one when it's out?

+1 for me:D

rumors saying it's going to be out for 2008
- -b.... make me dunt want to buy a ca now

Not an MP5 guy, but shit, it's lookin' goood.

I'm really curious as to what the internals are like, though..

how do you like the m4a1? i am saving up for one now... need 3 more pay cheque......and 1 other for accessorise........

damn i though i could get it for chrismas but failed to save enough T_T

Wonder what the price tag on that one will be...

dunno, there are rumors about it's canceled too, but the picture i attached is the only info i found on systema's site... so~

i will pray~

Holy shit! If Systema made an Mp5, damn.. I would be saving up a few grand.

yeah, right, that is where i found the rumors...
read it at midnight someday and couldnt find it anymore:(

thx dude

i fxking want to go to the shot show~~~~
too bad, have no vacation days left :(

You can't go to Shot Show unless you are an industry insider (manufacturer, distributor or retailer). It's not open to the public, and even those on the inside are not allowed to take pictures of all the things shown there.

"IF" it becomes available, good luck getting one anytime soon.

And, you are not buying an MP5, but the PTW platform. Currently, it only exists in the form of an AR. If you didn't buy one because you don't like an AR, don't buy the MP5. You buy the platform, not the gun, and the PTW is not for you. These aren't fashionable "guns of the week" and require a committment more serious than you can possibly imagine

"I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit."

Think $4000+ per gun, plus whatever accessories you want to put on it. Then be prepared to spend a hundred or more just trying BBs until you get the weight and strength to make the gun perform as it should.

And, the MP5 will likely be much more expensive than what you currently see for a PTW in Canada. The '08 line is going to increase significantly in January, and the MP5 won't be public until long after that. So guess what it will cost?

$3000 for the base gun will not be unrealistic at this point. And mags will be well over $100 each, as well as batteries, etc.

You might be able to "imagine alot", but can your credit card float it? That's another issue.

I could've gone to the shot show in Las Vegas, G&G invited Mark down there lol
We can be ceratin mags will be 100$ or more, but as for the gun itself I can't see it being more than the M4 PTW. Anyway we'll see when Mark gets them in!

This has got to be the most absurd statement I think I have ever read on ASC, and I mean ever, including when Crab was around!

People have tolerances and preferences. Why pay $2500 for a device intended to replicate an AR to a T, if you don't like AR? PTW's are by far thee best airsoft devices on the market, they have made made revolutions in internal designs to not only make the device the more accurate but also damn near indestructible using better materials. However, PTW's are STILL being modified and bugs worked out, just look at the MAX from the PTW V.1's. Like any other device. You do not pay $2500, for an AR no, you pay $2500 because of the internal design to it. But if you don't like AR's at all, WHY pay $2500 when $800 will suffice for airsoft? I am really thinking that you have forgotten that you are comparing a device intended for professional training to be used by military and law enforcement personnel, to devices made for a bunch of guys using TOYS to play a game on the weekend.



There are many people that play this game that do not like AR's, and when SystemA, comes out with a PTW version of the weapon they prefer I am sure those people would like to jump at such a prospect. Also I find it insulting, that you would dare state that any other device does not require the same amount of "dedication" as a PTW which is UTTER bullshit. Any "lesser" AEG will wear down and have parts break, requiring such person to have to take time and money to invest into their device to get it working again. With the Max versions out, what I'm told, BY YOU ((and other players that own PTW I've talked to)) and all your ravings about these devices is all you gotta do is shell out for it, drop lube here and there into it and change out an O-ring in the cylinder every once and a while.



EDIT: As for the MP5's, I can't wait. They offer so much more than AR's in some departments. IE. you can carry more magazines in less space, which is good if you're a sniper/spotter or on recon because you're trying to keep it light. Also MP5's are supreme for CQB environments, proof of this? Look at SWAT teams around the world, mostly seen weapon is an MP5 of one variant or another. AR's are a dying race, and with their newer versions coming out still more expensive than HK's wonder work horses it is not difficult to foresee the MP5 holding its place in military and LE use for a long time. SystemA is wise to introduce it as the next Personnel Training Weapon.

My card can float it, and my other habits hit the wallet a lot deeper than 4K.

Maybe a written test will help weed out the weak?

If you want to spend 2500$ on a AEG go for it, you shouldn't give a fuck about what anybody else thinks.

i think more platforms would help systema's business. i understand what your sayin mac, even though it may be the best gun out there if it looks like fuck, i would field it, even more important is how it feels to you, akward, bulky ect... like if ptw's only came in ak... i wouldnt be buying a ptw (HA! take that ak lovers lol).

oh la, i dunno that. but whatever, thx for mention that

well, i get what you are saying, but when you want something, it just go crazy sometimes.. and saving up 2-3 month for a PTW seems more valueable and satisfiable for me than any others, but it's personal preference, you know.

and yes i nearly have the cash now, next next pay will get enough for a M4A1 MAX and accersories. but i am kind of want to wait to feb and see what happens

i am getting a PTW anyway

I'll be attending the Shot Show 2008. rumor is that Systema is going to debut both the MP5 and the SuperMAX (M170) guns at the show. I'll report back after the show with any findings.

I gotta agree with Dracheous.

I don't see how a gun, that's main selling point is it operates amazingly out of a box, needs more commitment and dedication than other guns.

I spent months shopping around for my AK47 - buying parts here and there, making parts when I had too, (almost losing fingers in the process), and in the end I have a full steel, full wood, TM Based AK47 with an adequately upgraded mechbox, for only ~$700.

I would hope that the only commitment for a PTW is enough free cash, because with something costing nearly 5 times what's adequate, I would expect NOT to spend hours tweaking and working on my gun; other than some simple maintenance once in a while.

Having a PTW doesn't make anyone a super-player. With enough skill and knowledge you can be a super player with any gun. I mean, look at the guys who end up with 9+ knife kills at the end of the day, they didn't even need a gun.

If systema made an M249 para I'd sell my ramcharger in a heartbeat...

great, big thx in advance !

SuperMAX any relation to the 2008 models (aka MAX2 or gen5)?

Anyone else notice that picture says copyright 2004! That was almost 4 damn years ago! I doubt this thing will ever be released. "coming soon" my ass

But if Systema ever did make an MP5, I'd buy one. I wouldn't mind seeing a full systema line up. You know, an AK, MP5, I'd love a UMP, always wanted one of those.

I'm making the 'commitment' soon... Man this is gonna hit the wallet hard.

Anyone want to help me feed for the next month(s)^^

Buy some clothes from value village, and just go to the soup kitchen.

I don't think you guys get it. In fact, I'm certain of it.

Systema's selling feature is not it's out-of-the-box performance. Its the whole platform. The performance is a bonus.

Systema does NOT make you a better player. In fact, it makes you a worse player by lulling you into a sense of complacency due to the extreme performance of the gun. It makes you reliant on it, and you tend to become lazy. You start to think things like "Gee, I can hit that guy from here. No need to risk getting hit myself".

People who would only buy a PTW because it's an MP5 are looking to buy a gun. They aren't interested in it because of it's platform. If they were, they would already own the M4 version with no reservations. Its not a matter of buying a gun because you like the model, or not buying it because you don't like the model.

If you buy one, can you afford to fix it of it breaks? Could you diagnose a problem? Do you know the engineering principles behind the gun and tailor your ammo and maintenance accordingly? I doubt it.

The absurd rebuttals come from those who don't own them, and know very little about them. Did anyone realize the picture in the first post is from 2004? I'm betting not, and who's to say if the newly-released PTW will look anything like the model pictured.

I've owned PTWs for longer than most people knew they even existed, so I think I know what I'm talking about here.
Do you even realize who buys PTWs and what they buy? I do, because I get PM'd about several times each and every day. They are first-time gun owners, or they are veteran players tired of other guns. Some buy the guns factory assembled, and nearly all buy kits. And those kits are the worst thing Systema EVER did. People have problems of all kinds, from minor to severe to catastrophic. And all cost money, big money to fix. And most owners have no idea how to fix them, or where to get parts, or what parts to get. You can't just go to Redwolf or Jugglez and order parts.

Most players who want a PTW are going to get:

A) what they can afford or:

B) what is available.

And in nearly all occasions, it's the damn kits. If you knew how many PMs I get on here and other forums about those kits, I assure you, you'd never buy one. And guys do, even after I've given them the advice not to get it, and admit "I know, but I couldn't wait" or "I just had to get it". These are not the guys who take the committment of what is likely to come seriously. Many guys have to se4ll of nearly everything they own just to afford them. I know, I did. But will they have the resources to have a back-up gun should theirs go down, and still be able to afford to play and spend maybe $600-$800 on new electronics and a new motor if necessary?

You fail to see why I call it a committment. When a Classic Army gun breaks, parts are easy to find, cheap and available. Not so for a PTW, but stioll everyone wants to get on the SCK-bandwagon because they believe they can get away cheaper and easier. Not so at all my friend.

So, if you have some inside knowledge into the PTWs that I don't have, let's hear it!!

Reason i'm buying a PTW:

#1 I want performance and reliability.

#2 I love AR's.

#3 PTW = Cool :p

Agreed.

As much as I believe systema is beautiful platform, its not for me.
Its not my style, in my eyes, during an airsoft game, the BB only has to touch the opponent, not rip through them or even leave a welt.

+1 to I am well beyond that... getting a PTW is an investment for something that you like to do during busy life schedule and you just need to get away...

An MP5, yes I will wait for a year or so before getting one, also if they do decide on the production of a Masada, I would wait for a year of so...come to thing about it, maybe a second generation would be best from both for my case...

Bonus? $2500 and performance is the bonus? I think that you've forgotten that you are comparing a device designed for military and law enforcement personnel training like I've already stated to a god damned toy

Yes, me. However I do not go wavering it around that people who buy PTW buy it cause its PTW. Its an airsoft device that I get to use in shooting my friends on the weekend.

You failed to understand that I find your statement "Those who would not buy a PTW because it was an AR should not buy the MP5." What the fuck man, people buy PTW for its performance. Are YOU going to tell me right now fair and honest that if the PTW shot 25 feet and weak as an EBB that you would spend $2500 on it? NO! You are paying $2500 for THEE most accurate ((scale)), reliable and performing AEG on the market. Any other answer is is bullshit or just from a retarded person. Would you pay $250,000 for a Civic? Not if it wasn't gold plated and did 0 to light-speed in 6 flat.


And if someone likes an MP5 over an AR, they must now LOVE the AR just to own the MP5 PTW? HORSE... SHIT!


And as for "OOOh these things use parts that are hard to get!" Well then, I must be dedicated if I own WA or WE? Those are hard to get parts for, can't always go hit up Redwolf for them now can ya. Maruzen's pretty hard to get parts for right now pending your platform, a lot of the upgraded parts are being discontinued, will sure be hard to get them.



Your also part of the issue on this "lulling", but its not only PTW's that do that, Star M60's can do it too, and thats a funny sight 6ft 4 asian doing the Rambo seen top of a hill only to look at his chest, shot by a "lesser" TM M14. No one here on ASC is buying these guns for tactical training purposes as military or LE personnel ((Yes there are AF and LE members here, but they have issued shit they get to play with and train)), its all for the very fun game/sport/hobby/picnic/clubwar/weekendwarrior/hoedown event of airsoft.

go and purchase dental material....you will appreciate buying PTW's that are so cheap to compare...

get another Job....

*sigh*

Dracheous, do you know what the platform of the MP5 is? Do you know it's performance, cost, availability or options?

No, you don't.

I've seen all kinds of fanboy-ism on this site. Evryone goes "OMG!! FAL!! I'm so getting it", then when a FAL comes out, that same guy goes "Meh!!, not for me". People, and especially airsofters, are fickle. They have usually no idea what a gun is about until after they have it.

Look at the classifieds a month or 2 after Company X releases a gun. How many of the latest, newest models comes up for sale? How many used PTWs have you seen for sale? There have been none, a few new revenue guns, but none used.

The platform of the gun is what gives you your performance, but you must invest. You are not only buying a $2500 gun (which will likely be $3000 in January), but you are buying $1000+ in cylinder kits and batteries, plus the money to invest in mags and accessory upgrades. This is now a $4000-$5000 gun, with virtually nothing interchangable with anything else.

How many guys can make that committment? And it is a committment, not only financially, but the committment extend to being able to wait for the assembled gun, and not being sucked in to those damn kits because they are a few bucks cheaper and readily available. The committment is also being able maintain and feed your gun, and not taking the cheap and easy route.

How many guys can afford the PTW, and still have a back-up? Guys who buy kits need to do that, as the kits fail routinely, despite your best efforts. And parts are not always readily available, nor are they cheap.

This is my firss-hand experience with 3 years owning a PTW. You have none. And nobody has any experience with the MP5.

This point is moot until the MP5 is shipping and people are using them.

http://withmalice.files.wordpress.co...aby-crying.jpg

Couldn't help it.

Sure, wanna find me one?

Wow, this thread turned from being somewhat informative to being an E-***** waving fest.

PM'ed

And what was remotely informative about a "Coming Soon" pic from 2004?

If you can honestly answer and understand why you're buying a PTW from my posts, then perhaps it's informative.

You guys have to decide if a gun with no info on performance, cost, etc is worth buying. You'd be a fool to want it, knowing nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it. You have no idea what you're getting yourself into.

I'd buy a PTW PSG-1 because it would perform well out of the box. Plain and simple. There's no other reason I'd buy it.

"OOH! FUCK YEA! PTW ROCKSORZ! ITS THE LATEST SHIT SO I GOTTA GET IT FUCK YEA!"

no, no sorry, but that isn't me.

You seriously need to get your head out of your ass buddy. Were you not the same person who in the past has "sworn by the PTW" while looking down at all other brands of AEGs and telling others to follow suite if they were smart? I just find it odd that it seems like all of a sudden you are telling everyone not to get a PTW.

Whats wrong? Too many of them in the country now? Don't feel so special anymore? In the end it is still just a fucking hobby. Christ, a little less hubris would do you some good.

+1

I still believe that the PTW is the best platform available. Sure, it may have some quirks that some may not like. Some don't like the bolt release, some don't like the mag loading. Others don't like the stock. Some don't like the hop-up. I have no problems with any of this.

The problem I do have is everyone wanting to jump on the PTW bandwagon and few have really thought it through. Many people bought them last spring, when supply was good. Now, when supply is not good, far too many are buying kits just to get in the game. See how many guys say "OMFG!! MP5 PTW. I Gots to have!!" We know nothing about it. Those who want it likely know zero about the AR version of the PTW. Sure, maybe they read my posts or posts by others, or they saw one at a game, or maybe they even got to test-fire one. But that means shit.

I would personally like to see the PTW as the only available gun, from any manufacturer. But that is unrealistic and not necessarily the best for those who want other roles or weapons.

Do peole really realize what you have to do to get a PTW these days? Or parts, or accessories? Do they know who to get them from, and who not to? Do you really think I'd like to spend my Saturday eveing trying to convince you guys that maybe you should consider, and I mean really consider, what getting a PTW means? It means compromise. You can't own a PTW and all the related accessoires, and still have an arsenal of other guns to chose from. If you can, you are the wealthiest player here, and more power to you.

And what will the MP5 PTW be? Will it be a fully modular platform like the AR series? Will it use the same gearbox arrangement? Will it be another $5000+ investment? Or will it be a $599 U.S. metal-bodied gun with a Systema complete mechbox? Will it have electronics problems like the Gen 1-2 PTWs did? Will Systema's insistance on using only real HK mag shells still hold true, and will they be $100+ US like originally projected years ago? Will it have all the features that make the PTW what it is, or will it be a compromise?

The point is, nobody knows. But I can tell you for sure that if it's a new and different platform from what the PTW is currently, are you going to want to sell every gun you own and then some to buy one, just one, when it has not been tried and tested for years?

I think someone else needs to get their head out of their ass, look around a bit before piping up about about something you know jack shit about (in fact, nobody except Systema knows about, anywhere), and get a reality check.

What idiot in their right mind is going to sell the farm to get a gun nobody knows about, or has no idea what lay in-store for them? This is the committment I speak of.

I plan to lurk like a trap door spider and snatch one from the near mythical classifieds when baby, marriage, house etc. forces a sale.

Works every time in the rest of the world.

I'm in no rush and I've run custom vs. off the shelf gear before and am aware of the "hole you pour money into" potential for leaving the beaten tracks. Maybe it won't be a MP5 (lesser of 2 evils in my book anyway) maybe a well tweaked AR platform.

Some folks call this living better with information gained while being stupid (or aging for short).

+1 to mcguyer

it takes a large amount of disposable income and a very strong constitution to invest in a PTW. Some can and do buy them.....some dont. But most of all.....those that do usually have done their homework before the purchase.

Buying a new model Systema that has yet to be tested under 'field conditions' doesnt make sense. But then again, this is ASC and more than a few dh's on here dont make sense at the best of times.

>.> Why would anybody go out and buy something hot off the market, without knowing how it works in debth? And not just looking at the flasy signs saying
"Works great!" "PWN TEH N0013$" "l337 gun" "Kick #$@ 400 FPS with .48" (That'd be insane)
I think if you honestly want to buy a hella expensive gun, atleast know what you are going to need to take care of your hella expensive gun, and buy it for the right reasons...

This was point. Thank you. I don't know how I could say it any more plain, and still take the effort to give many, many reasons why this is the case.

Read my freakin' posts, people!!!

Not sure i would buy one. Knowing theres some good products in the making right now....for example aeg's with blowback and that one model with the moving bolt. Just my opinion

You make no fucking sense at all macguyver. Yeah I think it is a given that you should do some research before you make any purchase, but what the fuck does that have to do with that bullshit about "platforms" and whatnot that you have been spouting in the last few pages?
If there is a gun model someone likes, then I think it is more than reasonable for them to consider a purchase. Whether or not the original poster is serious or not, I don't know nor do I think it really matters. I just think it is pretty bullshit of you to impose this "you don't deserve to buy this gun because you don't have my experience" mentality.

Do you work for Systema? I don't think so. Granted you have previous experience with their products, it doesn't mean jack shit. As you have mentioned yourself. We don't know what the MP5 PTW will be like (if it ever comes out), but what if it ends up being a successful design like the Armalite PTW? What if it is a flop? What does it matter to you? Last time I checked unless you are going to sending one of these to my house for Christmas, it is really none of your concern whether or not I (or any other consumer) wants in on a new product.

I just want to restate, I have NOTHING against researching before purchasing. In fact I highly recommend any beginner to do so, but I just think ultimately it is in the hands of the buyer whether or not he is willing to try a new product. Also, just because you have a PTW currently doesn't make you a better player (both on and off the field), so lay off the "holier than thou" attitude.

I think part of the problem is that in recent months, there's been a lot (too much) enthusiasm from the PTW crowd, not to say fanboyism.

Having a decent chunk of disposable income, I've watched this evolve from the start, and I never thought this was for everyone, and still do not. Unfortunately, a lot of people are propping it up to be the Be All and End All of airsoft, the last gun you'll ever need to own, running perfectly out of the box and you'll never have to drop another dime into your gun except for BBs and the electricity needed to charge the battery.

Of course, anyone who's ever owned something high end -- be it electronics, cars, computers, or anything else -- knows this is never the case. And when something does go wrong, high end products incur high priced repair bills.

Nonetheless, people are going "ZOMG THis r gonna be awes0mez!11" and/or belittling other AEGs in favor of the PTW. That, of course, makes as much sense as belittling a BMW M3 because it's not a Porsche Carrera GT; no shit it isn't, but it never claimed or tried to be, which isn't to say its a piece of shit, either. Granted, the airsoft community seems to be polarizing towards either high end PTWs or total piece of shit economy guns lately, but I think there's still a relatively silent majority of players holding the middle ground with decent, well upgraded, properly-performing AEGs.

Point in case, a lot of people don't get the "PTW concept" (to paraphrase you [mcguyver]) simply because they're getting told "get a PTW, its the best AEG."

PTWs really shouldn't be promoted as just another AEG alternative, like CA and ICS were 4-5 years ago when they first came out with alternatives to TM. Yet this is exactly what a lot of people have been doing.

Sure I could go out and buy a fully assembled PTW, maybe two. But I don't really want to, and I most likely won't. For the price, I get way more enjoyment putting a good AEG together. Hell, for the price, I get way more enjoyment putting several good AEGs together. Ive been working on AEGs for close to 10 years, and I had the privilege of having someone proficient to teach me when I started; I've been through a lot of different parts over the years, some have worked well, some have failed miserably. But by now I do know how to put together a good mechbox. And I actually get quite a bit of pleasure putting together a gun, its 50% of the fun I get out of airsoft.

Now some people can't. They cheap out on parts, they do sloppy work. You know the kind of people I'm talking about. But now tell me honestly, do you really think a PTW is for them? They really should be getting directly to good quality, factory upgraded and ready-to-go AEGs, not PTWs.

As for the added realism of the PTW, it's a perk, but it's not vital -- no matter how much some people want it to be. There's a line of discussion I really don't want to get into, so I'll just cut right to the point and say I know there are people who train with AEGs, and they're fine with that; they go through the motions, even if the airsoft doesn't require it. Things like hitting the bolt release after reloading are basic enough that they don't need circuitry to cut out the trigger and remind them to do it. Granted that isn't everyone; some forces are buying some PTWs. But not everyone out in "the real world" feels they're the ultimate solution, either.

There is no "holier than thou" attitude here, unless it comes from you. Those who PM me with questions and problems always get the best answer I can give them. Why should I bother, if I'm so much better than you? I could tell guys to fuck-off and figure it out for themselves, and not waste my precious time and energy on the little people, when I'm so much better than you? Give me a freakin break!!

Did you even bother to read my posts, or did your dick get hard with one line and you had to fire a volley back? Case in point:


Go buy what you want. Spend what you want. You'll find out.

Hey Drake, I agree 100% with your post. I myself like building my own AEGs and the learning process that goes along with it.

The only reason I decided to say something was not because I supported jumping on the PTW bandwagon without research. I just found it ironic that the guy who started the PTW "fanboyism" is now the same guy who is turning people away.

Edit: And macguyver, who the fuck said I wanted to buy one myself? Maybe you are just misrepresenting yourself in your posts, but you have been sounding like an arrogant asshole.

There is no "turning people away" There is properly informing them from an actual owner/user perspective on what is involved. I don't care if you or anyone else buys one or not. I will never see you or play against you. But I feel an obligation to offer assistance when I have something valid to offer.

That's called trolling. If you have no intention of meaningful participation in a discussion, but would like to inflame the situation with name-calling and de-railing a thread off-topic on a personal rant, then why are you here?

You want me to apologize? Sure I will. I apologize for that off-topic rant.
But back on topic, I don't agree with your reasoning/argument. If I wanted a gun that I could make use of the quick change cylinder system of the PTW, but I don't like an AR. Systema comes out with a (insert model of choice), that I like. Are you saying I'm wrong to have a desire to want that gun, and that I don't deserve it?

As someone has already pointed out, the "extra committment required" you put forth doesn't really float because if you tinker with upgraded guns then you know it can take a shitload even with a non-PTW gun. And as for "diagnosing problems and troubleshooting" with a new system like a PTW. It's a process that can be learned. Sure parts may not be as readily available in CANADA as regular AEG parts, but it doesn't mean they can't be ordered elsewhere.

It's a BB gun.

Someone went to the trouble of making the worlds most technologically advanced BB gun. But it still just shoots BBs. A puff of air lobs some plastic.

There's maybe going to be two models now.

Some people who didn't buy the armalite are thinking "whoa, shit - awesome. I didn't buy the armalite, but I really like MP5's so I might think about this now".

How is there an argument happening about this?

I'd buy an MP5 before an armalite if it used the PTW system. The armalites sounded really cool. Not interested enough to bother buying one though. I also didn't need to own the armalite first to be capable of owning and operating a different model BB gun.

It's not fucking rocket science. It's marketing. BB gun marketing.

There's no need for anyone to be an asshole about it because they need to justify how much money they spent. Anyone who gets a feeling of superiority because they bought a Systema PTW might have a few issues...

My point exactly.

Now, I can admit that I have partaken of the "fanboy-ism" aspect of the gun. It's hard not to. But far too often, people hear "It's da shit!!" and say "I gotz ta have!" and don't really realize all that is involved.

I took a huge risk buying my first MAX. The Gen 1 was less than impressive, but I could see potential in the design. Nobody else in Canada at that time had a MAX (that I was ever aware of), so I bit the bullet and bought it. I used it, and bought another as back-up, not knowing what the reliability truly was going to be. After playing this season with it, my love for them grows (aaahh!!) and I still love the design and peformance. But it comes with a price, and a large one at that, even after you've bought the gun and related accessories.

The gun is physically hard on you, being as heavy as it is (heavier than the real thing I might add). The mags are much heavier, and they wear on even quality gear much harder than any Marui mag ever could.

Sure, you might see parts for PTW on-line somewhere, but it doesn't mean you can actually get them. Some places won't ship to Canada at all, and some can't get a common part because none are available currently, or it's out of an order cycle. With another AEG, if you can't get the Marui part you want, you get it from Classic Army or someone else. Not so at all with proprietary PTW parts. You're pretty much fucked.

You can't really "tinker" with a PTW. There are really no adjustments (except motor height) to be made, nothing to tweak except the hop-up.

What I was trying to say and actually did, was that you have to be able to either have multiple PTWs or have 1 plus others. This does not seem to be an issue with factory-built guns, as they do not seem to fail with anywhere near the regularity of the kits. This takes a huge committment financially, and where was this ever posted before except in this thread. I took the time to remind people from someone who has one (not someone who wants one) what all is involved, and this decision is not and should not be an impulsive one.

I have been accused by ASC members in the past of promoting the PTW. They bought (kits I might add) based solely (or so they say) on my opinion and were horribly diasappointed when it didn't perform as mine do. So, now you understand why fanboyism must give way to reality, and people should not get caught up in it.

I'm not saying that people should not buy an MP5 at all. What I'm saying is that you are buying a platform not a gun. The MP5 is only a shell, and likely a cheap one at that (Japanese law). You are buying the internals, the expensive mags, cylinder kits (if available or whatever new system they use), and this all costs money, huge money. Far more than any other regularly available airsoft gun.

And people just don't realize that.

Fair enough. I see where you are coming from with the SCK point. I was speaking more from the idea of a factorybuilt PTW anyways.

In terms of cost. Yes it is quite a lot. More than I want to dish out at the moment. But if you look at it this way, the cost is not quite as high as you put it. What was the price of a factory built PTW with mags from one of the pre-orders in the classifieds? Like ~$2200? I'm sure there are people on ASC that are quite capable and willing to pay that price for one gun that will be a good performer as opposed to purchasing several different tuned AEGs that quickly add up to that cost.
To reiterate, airsoft is a hobby. People can spend whatever they feel necessary to gain satisfaction (and we know how crazy some people can get with gear-whoring and such).
A PTW isn't quite at the level of cost required by car-tuning enthusiasts so it isn't one of those financially "impossible" dreams ;)

The price for the '08 PTW line is going up significantly in January. As Systema is moving out old '07 stock and replacing it with '08, they have graciously agreed to extend the current pricing, even though the new electronics and ne motor are significanly more expensive. When the '07 stock is gone (and it may already be) we will see a large price jump. Some estimates I've heard are $1800 U.S., which will put it in the $3000 price range in Canada. Then, with mags, cylinders, batteries, it's not hard to see $4000 for an actual game-able gun. Then add on rails, optics, whatever (not unique to a PTW at all) and a $5000 investment is possible and probable in just 1 gun.

It is known in the circles of PTW owners that the cost of the gun itself is about half the total cost to get it on the field. It may be less, but you'll have to give up the flexibility and battery life on the field in order to keep those costs down.

And this is a problem with Systema in Japan and it shopws up in Canada. I've said it before, but apparently it's been missed. The kits are very commonly the only PTWs available. In Europe, they have a real hate on for them and most distributors and retailers refuse to stock or sell them. The inability of the kits to be as reliable or perform as well not only gives the PTW an undeserved bum rap, but causes alot of grief for the retailer.

In Canada, we haven't learned this lesson apparently. The rest of the world has, that's why it's difficult to get factory assembled guns, and many models are constantly unavailable, like the CQB-R was all this year. There are very few factory assembled PTWs in Canada, and a reasonable ratio would likely be 1 assembled for every 10 kits. But people jump on the kits, not only because they can save money, but because they can get custom trades and would like the challenge.

I surely hope that Systema does do anything so stupid as bring their MP5 out in kit form. But if they do, you can bet that people will jump on it too. I'm trying now and have been for many moths to turn people away from the kits. Some have heeded my advice, but most have not.

And this is yet another "committment" reason I gave earlier. To understand and acknowledge the risks involved, and be prepared to deal with problems when they arise.

My God, I'm so tired of talking about this.

While listening to this song pretty much drunk i'll try to hold my composure together and make a legitimate reply. The song being "Too much, too young, too fast" by Airbourne. An ACDC sounding track newly put out by the aussie band much influenced by the old school rock bands including acdc. If this makes any sense i'll say take it slow and normal at first. Buy a half decent AEG and learn from it. Learn how to fix it, upgrade it and then move on. But hey, what can I say ive never owned nothing more then a $600 CA M15A4. But I look at it this way, take it easy in the beginning... spend your time learning off it if not more.... then work your way up. For some people there is nothing more mighty and higher then a PTW. Its for some, the final step in the airsoft world.. but right now only being in the 5.56 AR world..... Yaaaa I mean im drunk and im saying more then I would normally.. but it happens. Personally not owning a PTW or even the new mp5's I wouldn't bother making a comment or buying one. Let the ones with deep pockets do the thinking and reviewing and make your decisions from there. Theres no need to jump on the band waggon and try right out of the gate.. just take your time and learn off of what we have. No ones going to kick you in the nuts for having a cheap AEG.. everyone has to start from somewhere!

take it cool, take it slow... have some fun!

agreed.

I was seriously thinking of buying a systema... my bank account can handle it. I ended up pricing out a FULL custom M4 built off a Pro-win mech box. A few others on my team have done the same build and easily the Pro-win allows the gun to perform the same if not better then a Systema (no picky bb issues, regular AEG mags, everything else you can't have on a systema).
My build with out any "clone parts" (all G&G, KA, "quality airsoft" stuff) is under $1050 with battery and 1 mag. Sure it doesn't stop shooting when it is out of bbs but it is easily $2000 less, for something that is the same quality... didn't take me long to decide the Pro-win was the way for me to go.

I just came to the same conclusion a bit ago - just waiting for my pro-win to come in the mail. Huang made it too difficult to resist the temptation to get another armalite.