Indoor CQB FPS POLL
 

I should have done this in the first place instead of just having a discussion about it so here it is.

A poll to find out what people think the FPS speed should be for indoor CQB.

hi, most places is 350 and most players had tweak their gun to fit 350 standard already. so it is better to keep at the same fps limit

i think 350 is great, nice and even, people with systemas can use their black cylinder with no problems and others that dont want to be hit can option to wear a fask mask. I know things change from province to province, but come on...300 fps? you might as well stay home and play call of duty...

people argue this is a game and no one should get hurt, its a sport? are you kidding? what sport is there today besides like golf and tennis where people dont get hurt every once and a while?

350 is nice, however you should add a leniency towards that since most guns don't shoot perfectly at that mark, what if someone had a gun shooting at 360?

HACK THE BONE, HACK THE BONE! Hmmm what about full auto? Got an comments on taking a full auto burst at 350 up close?....aside from...body armour lol.

Well, I say 320 max. But it all depend on what kind of CQB field it is.

How about a limit of 340 with a leniancy of 10, so 350 can be the unofficial limit. Or 350 with no leniancy at all because that's still a pretty hot number for CQ

with a max of 350, theres no need to show leniency.
most peoples guns will be 330 - 340 anyways (stock CA)

At our indoor arena, if your gun shoots 350fps 3 times, and the 4th shot is 351, you cant use it.

God this has been debated since as long as I've been playing airsoft.

350 fps you shoot single or full auto
360 single shot

I have. It hurts, but meh... That's what long sleeves and pants are for.

I have no idea how fast it was shooting, but I took a 249 burst to the forehead from 20 ft away... It didn't make me bitter or anything or even leave a mark as I thought it would have, just made me realise I shouldn't have left my hat in the car... lol

I've never actually been "hurt" while playing, but I can tell you it can sting a bit, depending where you get him *cough* knuckles *cough*. It's not so much as pain or actual damage, it's the surprise / shock if you're not expecting to get hit.

Got shot full auto in the face at less than 10feet with a 350+fps gun. It's not really a great memory.

thats what facemasks are for.

yeah really this is the whole point here if your worried wear a mask and a helmet if you dont want to get hit...or just play laser tag...no wonder everyone thinks airsoft is nerdy and for pussies, everyone cries about getting hit with BB's and thats the name of the fucking game!

Not to thread jack, but are there balaclavas that you guys don't find it hot and nasty in?

Bah, I put 330 when I meant to put 350.

Nomex ones are okay. Personally I just wear glasses and my shemagh is up and over my mouth to eliminate possible dental incidents.

Ditto.

Yeah, I wear a bandanna over my face like a cowboy (I think it looks funny) to protect my teeth, and it's served me for two years with several direct tooth hits through it. Thin cloth actually does absorb a lot of momentum if it's got air under it.
When I'm getting up close and personal, I make a point of curling my lips in to tense the muscle and brace for impact (which has saved me from incident a few times) and I've also taken things to chew on the field to keep me from opening my mouth absently. (gum, fruit snacks, and jerky work well and fit in flat pouches)

It's also about milsim, 're-enacting', using strategy manouvers, if you want a game where the point is to shoot hard stuff at each other, that's what paintball is for.

As I've said on other forums, I'm ok with 350, depending who I'm playing with. Is some guy going to hold a pistol to my chest and shoot? Is there going to be blindfiring and people with no muzzle control? If that's the case I'd want a low fps, as there's no reason to have high fps in a CQB environment.

Keep in mind, the School CamoGames has is really tight, really close quarters most of the time. Average engagements was about 5-10 feet last time I was there.

so paintball is for real men and airsoft is for pussies is what your saying then right....???

The field is better then a 320 field, lol.

lol, so true gene:P. for everyone else, like in other posts discussed, its not about the pain. if pain is an issue, i recommend talking to some girls i know how to deal with getting shot by airsoft guns higher then 350:P

Also, studies show that men have a higher pain tolerance on the exo layer of the body while women have a higher pain tolerance within the body. so, in conclusion if a girl can take the heat theres no need to discuss the "pain" issue.

based on responses in the other thread Al, you should consider changing the poll just a bit.

There's a difference between 350 fps semi-only and 350 full-auto

sorry to have to throw in another monkeywrench into your research

Funny thing is, there's hardly any advantage in having a gun shoot 350FPS.

At a range of 75 feet, a gun shooting a 0.2gBB at 350FPS will reach it's target ~0.09 seconds faster than a one shooting at 280FPS.

I'm probably being very generous for using a range of 75 feet, in which case even shorter engagement distance basically makes the advantage of higher FPS negligible, if isn't already.

yay someone agrees .... im glad there are other people out there that think a sport is a sport

So lets say 350 was for bbs...

What are we looking at in terms for 12 inch long phallic shaped projectiles?

Yes, I guess I did make a mistake by not putting those options out there.

I was *assuming* it would be semi only.

I need girth so I can calculate friction of air!

About an inch worth of girth give or take.
Roughly 300g. At at about 9 fps you get about 1.12 joules of energy,
And 3 million kinds of awesome for hitting your opponent in the face. Extra props if their mouth was open.

Only a count of 3 million?

Dude, that's low!

You'd best be making this quite clear then, my friend. It has the potential of becoming a bone of contention otherwise.


Here's the real deal though. You are hitting on one of the things that makes event planning a big pain in the ass.

You...can't...please...everyone.

Make the rules for your event, and stick by them. By the time you finish compromising, you'll be three months past the event date, and everyone will have found something else.

Those who want to participate under your ruleset will. Those who don't want to, won't.

But you aren't going to come up with a rule-set that everyone can happily agree to. You will get criticized. You may lose potential customers. And its all out of your control, once you set the rules for the event.

The flipside is, if you don't set the rules of the event, you won't get the event anyways.

if they are solely made of rubber, then i would agree they are fine, but metal or plastic ones , or say ones over 14" would be a no go....

i dont think liquid covered is cool either...

No, that's not it at all. What I'm saying is: What is the point of airsoft? To mimic realistic military combat. Pain isn't necessary. I may be fine with having painful shots, but it's not a necessary part of the game, so to accommodate others who prefere not to have it, why do we need high FPS ratings in close quarters?

Am I ok with high fps? Yeah. Is it necessary when you don't have to worry about range or punching through bushes? No.

Your first post, which I replied to, seemed to imply that airsoft has to be a sport where shots hurt. I was merely saying there are a lot of other reasons to play it, and still have fun.

It's not just about not wanting to get hit, it's that some people don't want to have BB's in bedded in there neck because someone was blind firing, or just couldn't control where they shot.

Y'know what'll cause more problems than people getting shot with 350 FPS guns?

People getting shot with 300 FPS guns and not feeling the hits through gear.

Sometimes It's hard enough to feel 'em at 350...

The point is there's a whole community that wishes to participate that would have to re-modify their guns. 350 seems to be an almost standard across Canada, (Manitoba {XT}, Ontario {TTAC}, Quebec {??}) and it seems to work just fine.

If Manitoba's local CQB Club (They allows walk ins off the street, and you only have to be 16+ to play) can run for 5+ years without any injuries other than sprained ankles... I think seasoned airsoft players will be able to play at 350 without any problems.

No one that's going to making the trip to Camogames is going to be so green that they'll be blindfiring around corner and over shooting people. I'm fairly certain that the people there will be able to play a game of airsoft without being a douchebag.

what i was trying to imply was you need to be able to hit hard enough for people to feel it, people wear crazy, full gear loadouts now and your lucky to feel the hit at 350..

believe me as I run weekly indoor and outdoor games, i hear the whining and fighting about i hit you , no you didnt....

if you go OUCH...you know your hit...correct?

wow sorry i was typing as you were there dude ...guess we were on the same line of thought there....

Well some people wear more gear than they need and might not feel it. When you think about it 350 isn't all that fast, but most of the rifles I've seen are tuned in and around the 350+ mark lately, especially with the JG's. Not saying they can't just swap out the spring. Might just be simpler to keep it at 350. And yes I'd like full auto(controlled not a bb hose). Just my 2 cents. I like knowing I'm hit if it hurts or not I don't really care I'm there to play and have fun, and if I'm worried about head shots yes I'd wear a full face mask.

Ok, plain and simple then. What takes more effort? Tuning a gun down, or not complaining?

Hmm, let's see:

Tuning a gun down has been broken down into not only a time consuming operation, but a financial consideration.

Not complaning costs nothing and hurts no one. Specially in this case.

Safety being the number one concern, 350 full auto is not unsafe as pointed out by several people, even with examples given from businesses that are still in operation after many years of operating at this limit.

Honestly though, I think this thread is about done. A majority have voted for 350 while others have expressed their concerns. Now it's up to Al to decide what to do with this information.

If it were up to me, I would base the decision on business. What limit will draw the most clients without pushing away too many others? Looks like 350 to me. Anyways, I'm out. This has been talked to death now.

I really need to get some pictures / video of XT's layout... Seriously... If 16 year old girls can play there with 350 FPS and full auto guns...

No we're not playing this for pain... But getting shot with a 350 FPS gun isn't pain. It's a little sting... Kinda feels the same as getting snapped with an elastic...

Camo.. If you could please post some pictures of the average engagement places in the hospital I'm sure this could get solved much, much quicker.

YouTube - Airsoft at Xtreme-Tactics

There's a video of the old XT arena shot by some noobs that were playing... If they can handle 350/Full Auto there... Seriously...

At the last game we were I noticed blind firing going on. Not a lot but it happens. Later in the game, somebody turned the corner, held a pistol to my chest and shot pointblank. I wasn't even aiming my rifle at the time, I was trying to fix the light. Did it hurt too bad to handle? I don't think so, but it shows a lack of control on the shooters part, and who knows, maybe it'd be somebody's teeth next time.

For the gear thing, the way I see it, is whatever the rules are, and whatever the situation is, you should wear gear accordingly so you can tell if you're hit. Also the shooters would have enough control to aim at soft spots, like arm, leg, butt, whatever.

Al, whatever you set the fps at I'll be coming, it's too fun.

way back in the day when i played on the boat in mission bc the fps limit was 330,, with the majority of contacts happening at under 30 ft that can sting quite a bit depending on where you get hit, but i doubt another 20 fps on top of that would make a ton of difference,, i remember someone on these forums saying "pain is just weakness leaving the body", and now its one of my favourite quotes.

as for the goggle stuff thats been posted here, i wear a full shield and gloves,, i can handle pain but breaking a tooth would make me loose my sunny disposition... which i dont really have to start with.

Riley, you should give up with us on the girl thing. They dont wanna admit the jolt of a string is to much to handle. ha

350 fps no fear no fun!
do wear a mouth guard though

Hey sorry to threadjack,I know this is not really related, but for example If my gun's selector switch is not allowing semi, only the full-auto and safe, can I not play because the gun isn't working properly at a semi auto only cqb event? what are the general rules concerning this?

For me, I would say just use a burst for a good shot, but if you cant get a sure shot, scare the shit out of them and hose them - hopefully one will hit them.

If your a good airsofter, you should already know the answer to this. :) get some confidence!

Cushak... you say that one point to airsoft is mill sim... but then say that we should wear gear that lets us feel the hits... WTF.... when in CQC, the millitary dosnt wear t-shirts. with alot of full length camo it is hard to tell what is a hit. if you are aiming for mill sim you cant wear gear that alows you to feel it!
and as for the FPS, do you guys really need to complain over 50-30 fps like really grow up... i realize that you might not want to go with full face mask, so just get something to cover your teeth.
just cuz the max is 350 dosnt mean that you will be at any less of a disadvantage if your gun is at 320 or even 300... with short distences like this, if you think that you will be at a disadvantage for range, thats what they invented the hop up for!!!!
with an FPS limit of under 350, you eliminate any new airsofters as most of them can not mod a stock gun to play on the feild. and if you say that you do not want to play with new airsofters, then you are wishing for the end of our sport (please please please do not expand on this idea... there are enough sky is falling threads here) to ensure the development of our beautiful sport we must grow!
i know for sure that i am NOT modding my guns that are well tuned for all events in my province to play in a field with lower FPS limmit that is not necessary!

For the record, I put this poll up with semi-auto in mind. I apologize for not stating that in the beginning, but at this point I don't think it matters.


Now, I know I will not please everyone, and if I had been involved with Airsoft for years I would not even have asked this question because I would have already known the answer through experience. However, I am brand new (started this in January) so it is in my best interest as a business owner to ask and go the way I see fit after I have the info I need.

Well, now you've got a mostly official notice that 350 is accepted widely across canada.

As for the Semi/Full debate? Just have two different slots of game time, one with full auto, one without. Alternate the slots. I know that I rarely use full auto. Hell, I've got an AEG that only shoots semi and I'm fine with it. This way people who are playing full auto and want a "break" can hop into the semi slot, while people in the semi-slot who want to give the full auto a try can hop into that.

It's fair, it's going to please the most amount of people, and you've got a standard FPS MAXIMUM (that's the key word, maximum, not all guns are going to be shooting 350, hell, they'll most likely be 320-340) to go by. Setting up semi/full games from there should be easy. :)

Hell, buy two packs of zip ties, one red, one yellow. The ones that meet the full auto requirement (I believe you mentioned 320) get a yellow zip tie. The ones that go over that, get a red one. Makes life easy for you.

I think Firewalker's suggestion of alternation blocks of semi/auto is a valid one. Personally, I wouldn't play a no-auto game unless it's a pistol/shotgun-only game. I played CQB this winter almost entirely with just a pistol on semi against people with AEGs on full auto and had a lot of fun. IMO, having people running around with replicas of automatic weapons but limiting them to semi is something of a mood killer, even if one is on the receiving end.

I got shot from 3 feet with a gun shooting at 400FPS and it diddent hurt that much. this was this weekend at a game i went to. that was wearing my camo and my tac vest when it was undone.

Why Semi only?
 

Because then you have to actually shoot at your target and not just spray an area.

People with poor shooting skills, get better, People with good shooting skills earn success.

In addition I enforce a "realcap" mag limit.

If you are running a DEagle.. you get 7 rounds per mag,

mp5 has 30

Most people with realcap loads... even if they could fire auto , don't.

If you are running a DE, you get faster at reloading more quickly. :D

Unless shes a .357 DE then you get nine, but come on! if you got a DE it has to be a hand cannon.

this is exactly what i was thinking. isn't the advantage of a long arm the ability to place two or three shots in a target to make sure they go down? besides from my limited experience its harder to corner quickly with an mp5 compared to a pistol so people who buy an AEG should not be put at a disadvantage. there should simply be an cap on the amount of ammunition so people don't go overboard. though i guess some people will abuse auto and start using their guns like paint ball markers. *sits in corner and hoses* :P

This is one thing that no one has really touched on. Mag limits.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most airsofters use midcaps. At XT they use midcaps, and only allow midcaps (if memory serves me correctly; haven't been in ages).

Midcaps with semi-only @ 5 mags/ person (average) = a lot of unspent ammo.
Real caps with semi-only @ 5 mags/ person = probably need to refill.
Midcaps with full auto @ 5 mags per person = probably need to refill.
Real caps with full auto @ 5 mags/ person = either a lot of chosen shots OR short games.

Personally, I think if it's gonna be a full auto game, it should allow midcaps, for the simple reason that it will let the games stretch out longer. People still have to be smart with their ammo, but they can also be a bit more liberal and have a bit more "Action Movie" moments. Not saying that noobs will be as responsible with their ammo, but most experienced players will have no problem maintaining trigger control.

If it's gonna be semi-only, then real-caps (or mids filled to real-cap capacity) will make it a lot more interesting. when you've got 340 bb's (that's 68 x 5) and are only firing semi, it'll take you a while to run out. Hell, using my SR-25, I have to try hard to go through one mag of 120 in a skrim.

Though I do have to say, I'd love to try a real-cap full auto game sometime. It'd be nice to see what it's like.

Also, another way to limit the ammo, is to restrict the amount of mags allowed on a person. If you, say, do decide to do 350, full auto. You can limit each person to 4 mags and only 4 mags (midcap). This will promote more responsibility. Hell, if people are stuck with only 272 bb's, they're not going to want to spray and pray if that means they've gotta spend ~5 minutes at respawn reloading.

This is all my opinion though. I've not run an airsoft CQB building before so take it as just an airsofter's opinion. :)

EDIT: And for the record, the "Blocks" concept is not my own, just repeating some very good ideas that I happened to agree with that have been brought up elsewhere.

Did I say tee-shirts? No. So don't assume I'm meaning that. At close ranges you can feel a 280 gun through regular BDU's easily. A plate carrier with inserst you aren't going to feel it even if it's going 450 fps.

I was never complaining about 50-30 fps. I merely said that I'm of the opinion that a high fps isn't necessary in CQB.

That was never an issue. But yes, you would notice a range difference between a 350 fps, and 300 fps gun, assuming similar quality internals and properly tuned hop-ups. The only issue with range mentioned, was that in the CQC facility camo-games is talking about, egagement distances are so short, it isn't a factor. Meaning you don't need a hot gun to reach out and touch someone.

Cry me a river. A spring is ~$10-~$20. If you can afford a gun, you can afford a spring if that's what your local rules require. Swapping them out is very is, all people have to do is research, and go slow their first time.

Than you'd be choosing to not play there. Whoop-de-doo. I for one feel that these games are worth being flexible for, so if I had to take my gun down to 280, I'd do it.



Semi/Auto - whatever, both are fun and present unique challenges.

So, a person should have to reduce the life expectancy of a perfectly working stock gun by half just to appease a clear minority (based on this poll) of people who are afraid bb's going barely fast enough to break bare skin?

Perhaps what needs to be done is everyone needs to find out what the community at large uses and use that across the board. Set a standard for everyone in the country as far as FPS goes. Standardization is the problem, not "ouch factor" or anything like that. All our CQB places are different. Some have corridors that don't accommodate the lower fps (in that a shot from a pistol doing 280 sometimes even drops off before reaching the end). That's why we have the higher FPS, on top of that, all the gear people wear, some that's going 280-300 when it finally hits someone isn't going to be felt. It's barely going to be heard in the raucous rooms of a CQB arena.

My question is why lower FPS because of some perceived threat that doesn't actually exist? Please, if you can find evidence showing that 350 is significantly more dangerous than 300 when following safety precautions, I'd love to hear it. Is 350 more dangerous than 300? Not if you're wearing the proper protection, so any point on that is moot.

The only way ~350 FPS is going to hurt someone is if they have a T-Shirt and Bermuda Shorts on and aren't wearing safety equipment (eye/face protection). If you show up in that, you're begging to be hurt. The honus is on the player, not the location, to protect themselves adequately from any threat, real or percieved, to their safety and comfort.

Besides, the poll speaks for itself. The community has shown that 350 is an acceptable limit. And that's what it is. A L-i-m-i-t. It's not a target. No one has ever said we're all going to show up with guns shooting 350 on the button. But reducing to 320 or even 300 when a stock gun is shooting 340-345 is just ludicrous. Literally, it's 70 dollars and half the life expectancy (or more if the user is inexperienced) of the gun vs 15 dollars for a face mask and a free pair of testicles should they decide to grown them.

Most guns these days newer people are buying have a short life expectancy as it is, and many need to be opened to give them good performance.

I've witnessed a lot of dumb, stupid things at games. Last year a group of us went to alberta for a big game, while there, somebody held a pistol against one of our our guys' skulls and pulled the trigger.

So if the situation allows for a lower fps (no need to worry about range etc), why not?

The honus is also on the shooter, and gun owner to use it in a reasonable, responsible manner. In CQB, having a hot gun does not affect skill. So, why? Because some people out there won't spend $10 on a spring, and a few hours learning how to take apart a mechbox. (once you do it the first time, it takes about 20-30 minutes to clean, re-grease, and swap a spring.)

$70? fps issue aside, who charges $70 for a spring swap? Who pays for that either?

If it's a TM, it's 280 stock anyways. If it's a clone, you could even accidentally increase the life span.


My point isn't about "not having testicles", it's about what's the point? If it was about "having the balls", why doesn't someone just enlist and go over to the sandbox to get shot at with real bullets?

I'm not arguing against people who's opinion is that 350 is a good limit for this CQB building (Ultra tight engagements). I'm only asking for a reason other than a) "Grow some balls" or b) "I'm too lazy to change my springs". Other than those two, why would you say is a good reason. (I don't consider "life expectancy" a good reason. The only two mech boxes I can see this affecting are TM's (280 anyways) and PTWs)

I miss my testicles.

EDIT: Stupid spam bots, they do go after polls!

that is the longest bot post i've ever seen. "now includes fake youtube links, and pornographic pics!". Reported.

back on topic: i prefer 330 fps and under for cqb.

Funny, the last time I played against people here in Manitoba, they all had mid to high quality guns. Hell, mine shot 410fps on .2 out of the box.

Wow, so one retard in alberta and the rest of the god damned country suffers. Congrats on the kindergarten punishment mentality. Still have not seen any evidence to prove that 350 is more dangerous than 300 when the proper precautions are made.

Assumptions are hilarious. You assume everyone is gifted with technical inclination. Not everyone is. Not everyone can take apart a mechbox, let alone put it back together again.

I love how you think everyone can be technically inclined. It's a laughable concept at best. My TM M16A2 was 310 on .2's, out of the box. So no. It's not that all the time.

lol. You missed the point. You're crying about FPS limits being too high, when the majority of these guns shoot just under or just over 350 in stock condition. When there's no extra risk involved, why bother changing the spring because someone's got sand in their ovaries?

Is there a reason we SHOULD change the spring? You've still not shown any evidence that it's more dangerous. Not a single shred. So my point still stands. It's not any more dangerous than 300, so why bother changing for people because of some perceived yet non-extant threat.

That was just one example.

But you are right, I shouldn't assume that people can do gearbox work. Also, I shouldn't assume that what appears to be a purchasing fad on ASC (JG's, Krakens etc) applies to everyone.


I wasn't, I was trying to be accommodating to as much people as possible, but you've brought up some good points (in saying some things aren't good to assume) as to why it can, in the end, be accommodating to less people.

Makes me wonder what the average fps of peoples gun is anyways.

Manitoba rule: Indoor, 350 FPS maximum, Outdoors, 400 maximum if you want full auto, 470 single shot only. All FPS tested with .20g BBs


Everything across Canada is fairly similar.. give or take 40-50 FPS here and there.

I meant more as people's personal guns. What the PDW guys do (they host most of the games here) is 425 full auto, 450 semi (auto disabled), and 475 bolt action.

From what I've seen, it runs everywhere from 330-440 for outdoor guns (as per amos' post). A lot of folks, like myself, only have outdoor guns, so ours are generally higher up on the fps scale.

I'd say for the full auto outdoor guns, they range anywhere from 340-385, some are upgraded internally, others are just fitted with minor things (hopups, barrels), others yet are bone stock. We run the gamut, but most are upper range fps.

Most, however, hare the mid-range and top-end guns. Our snipers are usually running 410-430. My rifle, after upgrades, will be running around 415-420 tops.

---

Now, bare in mind, I'm not against lower fps. I had a stock TM at 310 that I cherished and loved playing with against those with more powerful pieces (until the body went tits up). I'm just about the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" concept. Especially since many of us cannot do our own repairs or simply lack the facilities to do so.

Camo, one thing to keep in mind as well. For the local Saskatchewan teams and fields, we have the rule that new players must run stock FPS for 1 year until they have proven they know gun control and earned the trust of the established players to upgrade to higher FPS. This is mainly to keep everyone from running out and upgrading to 350+ FPS to be at the same levels as some of the "senior" players, and over time many of them find that they do not need to upgrade their guns.

Personally, I've played in just about every province in the country. CQB and Outdoors. I've played with the Calgary guys a few years back at the Laser Tag place they have off McLeod Trail, and there was some rather hot shots that I would have sworn were over 350 on full auto from about 10'. Yes I took the hits and continued to play, but I'm fat and have some extra layers of protection. Honestly, I'd set the limit around 320 to 330 allowing a max of +5 variance above on the chrony tests. This will allow for the odd hot shots on full auto bursts where it might jump by +10. It will also, allow for any newer players that might be coming out who are still prone to blind firing (albeit unconsiously, as I've seen senior players do it now and then), and the last thing someone wants is to be walking up a stairwell turning a corner to have a barrel shoved against their goggles (which could shift them) and said barrel's owner panicing and holding down for a full auto spray before recovering. Yea theres the option to a full face mask, they have holes in them, which last time I check (5 mins ago on 3 different brands/designs) 6mm fit through quite nicely. In CQB I usually wear goggles and a shemag.

This is mainly the reason, I have a couple stock guns now which I'll be keeping stock for CQB, and my upgraded guns will see the day light outdoors.

I want to thank everyone who has voted and has had input on this subject. I'm somewhat sorry that it got heated at times. Not my intention.

I am fully aware now that there will continue to be a wide spread until everyone comes together on the playing field and sorts it out through actual play. Trying different things. Then at some point in the future there might be a consensus. If not, then not.

Anyway, at this point, I have what I need so thanks again.

And also to add, majority of GBB's (definetly not NBB's) will not fire under 300 fps on propane. My GBB's are for the most part, tuned for propane use and certain ones don't cycle properly on duster (Ie. KJW/WE guns).