Hi-Capa 4.3 : Creation Outer Barrel Compatibility with PGC slide
 

Hi guys,

Have been running the stock plastic barrel with a PGC Infinity slide for a while and thought it was time to upgrade to a metal barrel. So I picked up a Creation Outer Barrel for Marui Hi Capa 4.3, thinking that it would be a drop in fit.

Swapped the hopup unit into the new barrel and lubed up the barrel contact points with the slide, and racked it. Nice. Then I shot the first shot and it was good. Second shot and nothing happened. And then I realised that the slide was not returning to battery. About another 1/4 inch to go, with the recoil guide rod sticking out.

Upon further examination, I realised that the barrel was not going into the chamber lugs on the PGC slide after each shot. I racked the slie manually to see if that helps to mate the slide to the barrel, but all that did was chew into the chamber slot of the slide. Changed back to the plastic barrel and all worked perfectly again.

Anyone have experience with the Creation outer barrels for Hi Capa 4.3? THe plastic barrel works fine with the PGC slide. I've compared the chamber lugs on the outer barrel with the stock barrel, and they are not identical in offset and placement. Anything I can do with the barrel, or shoul I just save myself the trouble and get a nine ball chamber? Would that be a drop in fit with the PGC slides?

Thanks in advance!

Anyone??

Anyways I went to get a SD outer chamber as I measured the chamber lugs on the Creation chamber and they were off by a couple of mm's to the stock one. Screwed on the Creation outer barrel on the SD chamber, installed the new uber-expensive chamber and still the same problem persists. However when I turned the slide upside down and racked it it returned to battery perfectly. Tried racking the slide while pushing the tip of the outer barrel up and it worked as well. So I'm thinking that its due to the new outer barrel being too heavy and pulling the entire chamber assembly down. This could also be caused by the fact that the outer barrel is no longer supported by the spring guide barrel that came with the PGC slide. The PGC slide polished spring guide barrel doesn't have a bushing-like support under the barrel like the stock Marui one. Will try the stock spring guide barrel later tonight to see if that solves the problem.

However, I'm just confused on why this setup doesn't work. I've seen plenty of pictures of guns with PGC sldies with the springe guide barrels that don't have the bushing-like support, with SD outer chambers, and they all report as working perfectly fine. But most I've see are with the 5.1. Not sure if that is the case with 4.3's. With the new PGC slide and springe guide barrel, the lighter stock plastic outer chamber and barrel works flawlessly. With a metal chamber and barrel, it gets stuck 1cm from battery when racked. Returns to battery when using the SD chamber, but only when upside down.

What am I doing wrong?? Please advise!

Pictorial to help gun gurus deduce what the problem is!
 

Here's some pictures to describe the problem with my TM Hi-Capa 4.3.

This is the PGC Slide off the stock TM frame.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01076.jpg

This is what happens when I rack the slide normally, irregardless of how hard or soft I let it return to battery.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01077.jpg

This is the Creation chamber eating into my PGC slide. It sits lower than it should, wedging in between the slide and the BBU.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01078.jpg

This is how the Creation chamber rest when the slide jams. Note the overtravel when it slams into the rear of the chamber breach.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01079.jpg

This is the damage to the slide from the steel chamber.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01080.jpg

More damage. Sigh...
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01081.jpg

Side view of the slide not returning to battery and chamber jamming, sitting lower than it should in the chamber breach ie. not returning fully and upwards into the slide lugs.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01082.jpg

However, if I pull the outer barrel away from the muzzle when slowly returning the slide to battery, it works. Note the difference in chamber height in comparison to the picture above when it f***s up.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01084.jpg

As advised, I chambered the slide lugs slightly on the muzzle side, mimicking the stock TM slide.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01086.jpg

Smoothed the corners as well.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01087.jpg

The small notch that was worn down on the base of my hop-up unit. I restored it with some nylon plastic and superglue and sanded it smooth and flat, thinking that this would help to push the chamber upwards at the end of the slide return and into the correct position in the slide lugs. Not really working. But at least eliminated one suspicion.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01089.jpg

The outer chambers side by side. Top is stock TM plastic, middle is Creation, and bottom is SD.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01090.jpg

Smoothed out the sharp corners of the lugs of both Creation and SD chambers. Nothing else sanded.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01091.jpg

Comparison of the chamber leg that holds the hop-up unit in place. Note the flatter design of the SD chamber compared to the stock and Creation chamber. The SD chamber wobbles when installed with the PGC slide ie. has up-and-down play, as well as forwards and backwards play. Could this be due to the flatter SD chamber legs, or did I just file too much material away? Creation chamber doesn't wobble, neither does the stock.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01092.jpg

Comparison of the chamber lugs width on the Creation(left) and SD(right) chamber.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01094.jpg

TM stock with Creation.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01095.jpg

TM stock with SD.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01096.jpg

Stock TM spring guide barrel with the PGC spring guide barrel that came with the slide. Note the edge that helps support the outer barrel on the stock TM, I thought that was the problem, so I put the stock guide barrel on to test it. Didn't work before I filed the slide lugs, haven't tried it again after. Not sure if that effects anything as I've seen may hi-capa outer barrels the support.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01098.jpg

Creation outer barrel. Muzzle hole was a little tight so sanded it evenly. Trying to mimick everything on the stock TM outer barrel as much as possible.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01099.jpg

SD chamber with the Creation outer barrel on the PGC slide. Has more up and down as well as back and forwards play on the PGC slide. Might have shaved too much off? Didn't take much off the SD chamber lugs (not that easy to overdo it with steel).
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01100.jpg

More overtravel of the SD outer chamber in the chamber breach than the Creation outer chamber.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01102.jpg

I love how it looks. But it doesn't work. OMG.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01103.jpg

Hope that is more informative and can assist you gun gurus in deducing what the hell the problem is. Please HELP!

Here's the bad news:
The initial damage caused by the slide slamming in to the chamber has sheared off all of the lugs that is required for the slide to bring the chamber/barrel back in to battery. Your slide is now dead and your gun is no longer usable in its current state.

Here's the good news:
You get to try other brands of slides now, as you are forced to buy a new one. :P

Alternatively, this also gives you opportunities to try another setup:
A compensator mounted to the muzzle of the gun will create a third impact point for the slide to push the outer barrel forward, seeing as how the original ones are now destroyed.

Hi Illusion,

Honoured to be graced by your presence.

I'm confused though, how is my slide lugs destroyed? I chamfered them intentionally based on advice on the threads where people have been saying how they should be. Before I chamfered and smoothed the slide lugs, it was sharp at the edges of the lugs and the slide sould jam in a similar manner (as was my initial dilemma when I started this thread over a week ago and there was no response so I resorted to reading other threads on similar problems ie. simonyha's AS slide being damaged by the steel outer chamber as well.)

I'm still confused on how the bloody chamber interacts with the slide and why the PGC slide I bought doesn't work with the outer chambers, as I bought these based on information on the hi-capa list of upgrade parts that I studied meticulously before I spent my hard earned money on lemons.

I'm no way wiser than before to how it works, as if it was destroyed in its current state it's because I took a file to the slide lugs myself in an attempt to fix the initial problem of jamming.

I think that he meant the vertical lug that is inside the slide, just behind (muzzle pointing away from you) the ejection port....not the traditional 1911 barrel lugs on top of the barrel.

I've chamfered the edges on the lugs on a barrel (just a touch to break the sharp corner) as well...and it worked for one pistol and didn't fix (didn't make it any worse) another.

All manufactures have their own specs. They also hold their parts to their own quality control. In an ideal world you'd be able to take one part and drop it into another...but such is not the case (at least in my experience) with a lot of different things in airsoft (GBBs just seem to be spectacularly bad sometimes).

My own "machining" with a hand file...can't be anywhere as precise as a factory that mass produces these things.

At any rate. Your slide is pooched. You could buy a new slide...but I'd be leary to try that chamber in it. Personally...if I had the opportunity and the option, I'd buy all the chamber, barrel and slide from the same manufacturer.

http://upload.pbase.com/image/107850250/original.jpg

As you can see, there are more than just the lugs you've worked on. Even that picture only indicates 4 lugs total. There are some slide manufacturers now that actually use 5 lugs, with the 5th one behind the arrow for Lug 3A, against the side wall of the slide.

Although you may have worked on Lugs 1 and 2, your image shows lug 3B as being destroyed. As far as lugs 1 and 2 are concerned, they have very little to no part in the forward part of the blowback/rechambering process, which is why chamfering lugs 1 and 2 yielded no change.
As far as I can tell from your photos, lug 3B has completely snapped off and that area is now flat. It even looks like damage is beginning to occur to your blowback chamber, because there is no longer any slide material to block the chamber from striking the legs of the blowback unit.
Without lug 3B, you will have a hard time getting your slide to push your chamber forward to bring it back up in to battery. As a result, the chamber is getting stuck under lug 3A, assuming 3A hasn't already been destroyed as well (can't tell from your photos).

Your PGC slide looks like it was never designed to take the 5th impact point, so as a result, there are no lugs left to push the outer barrel forward to initiate a proper rechambering action. This type of damage isn't something that is easily fixed. Because of the type of impact involved, it is very difficult to just add material in place. The only solution is to find another method to pull the outer barrel forward. As I mentioned, a compensator attached to the outer barrel is one such method to allow the slide to pull the outer barrel forward (rather than push it from behind.)

That sucks big time. Real big time. Especially after buying two outer chambers when the plastic one worked perfectly. And now the slide is screwed up because of it.

How should I set up the compensator if I wanted to save the slide?

Is there a diagram to show how a hi-capa outer chamber and the slide interacts with each other? So I can understand how this f**ked up.

Its a common problem with certain slides and steel chamber. My Hi-Capa came with a PGC and it destroyed itself on a Guarder barrel. Then I bought a SD slide which has an extra lug on the opposite side of the lug 3B. Works fine with SD chamber+barrel combo. The Airsoft Surgeon slide that I am currently running has the same problem as the PGC(as ILLusion can attest as well), but with my Hybrid mod it effectively introduce a new point of contact to the slide and the outer barrel. The BEST slide I've seen to deal with this stock, is the Nova slide on my 1911. On the same area as the SD lug, is a very sturdy section thats designed to contact the chamber on the straight edge on the backside of the chamber. Which is basically what ILLusion's new custom slides are designed to do.

Sigh... I wish I knew all this before I went out and bought those chambers if that they don't work in the first place. They should post out these things so we don't destroy out slides and don't know what's happening until its too late.

I'm looking at assembling this slide/frame combo:
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...l?prodID=25095

From what I see from Illusions lug diagram, my Airsoft Surgeon slide has them all, or am I seeing things?
My AS frame is No# 09

What should I do before I render the slide useless!

As far as I know, the Creation outer barrel is threaded inside the muzzle... however, I don't know which threaded adapters that may fit. I know the Tanio Koba One Touch silencer joint for sure doesn't fit.

But if you can find one, then you may have an option to attach a compensator at that point. The slide would then just bang against the back of the compensator to pull the outer barrel forward. Make sense?

I have that same set and smashed that exact same slide to the point of uselessness. I have frame # CL 05.
I blamed myself for using a Tanio Koba one piece outer barrel with it - I figured it must have been the cause of the damage.

Dismayed but not totally given up, I contacted the manufacturer of the kit and acquired a replacement slide as well as their OWN in house polished 304 stainless steel one-piece outer barrel/chamber. That barrel showed up and it was like opening my very own engagement ring. That thing was so shiny and bright... it HAD to work. So I reassembled it all back together, ran through some firing tests, worked out a couple of kicks and bugs, and then... NOOOO! I see a piece of black metal pop up in to the air after a shot. I take a look and see that the slide was now over riding the chamber again.

yarrrrrr. anger ensued. Yet another $200 down the drain. Two dead slides worth $230 each, less than 3 mags through each of them.

This put me on a bit of a path and I went through days of drawing diagrams and discussing this issue with the manufacturer to figure out why this was happening. Speaking to RacingManiac, he said his had the exact same problem as my two slides - so it wasn't just my setup.

Strangely enough, I can't even say all their slides are bad. I've installed them before using Shooters design chamber/barrel sets and all worked fine, even after an extended period of use. So maybe only Shooters Design slides are bad?

Anyways, I didn't really want to dump another $230 to get a 3rd slide, so I shipped the two slides back to the manufacturer, told them to turn them in to hybrid slides and to make me a gold plated sight tracker outer barrel to fit it and send it all back to me and I'd be done with it.

So ultimately, there are two good things that came out of this:

1) We came up with a new slide design with the additional 5th lug. Slightly different design from what's currently available on the market, but it should prove to be effective at preventing this from happening again.

2) Now I'll end up with a pistol way more blinged out than I'd originally hoped, with a spare slide in case some other obscene damage occurs that I couldn't foresee...

Thanks guys. So lets see.. the only comp set that would look decent on my gun would be the PDI JB comp set for the 4.3. $160.. hmm.. What other options do I have?

So with this setup, I would be able to reuse my slide, the chamber, and an extended inner barrel? And it would cycle as reliable as stock again as it did before with the plastic chamber.. Is this an accurate deduction?

I also thinking that I might be able to save the slide's damage a little bit, since I examine the lugs 3A and 3B, and they are not totally gone. 3A is shaved, while 3B has been etched in but there is still some material there. What if I put some epoxy there, or better yet put up some nylon plastic and superglue it to fill in the damage, and sand it smooth. Might not be a total fix, but at least any additional damage would be done to nylon plastic which I can easily replace. Would that be able to help?

Also, I haven't figured this thing out. How come the stock chamber works while the steel one doesn't? Is it a weight issue?

Assuming that I haven't had damage to lugs 3A and 3B, have what I had done to the slide lugs 1 and 2 and to the chamber lugs been helpful at all, or did I not need to do all that work at all?

That kit is not mounted to the outer barrel - it's mounted to the inner barrel (unless PDI has a 4.3 barrel mount now... last time I checked, they didn't).

If it's attached to your inner barrel, that does you no good, as the inner barrel being pulled forward does not equal the outer barrel being pulled forward.

Unfortunately, for the 4.3, there are very little options as far as adding a compensator...

The only other option I can think of is creating a sleeve at the end of your outer barrel, so that when the slide rams forward, it will strike that bushing to pull the outer barrel forward. The problem is finding a material that can hold up to the impact forces as well as finding a way to secure it to the barrel.

If you don't mind the trouble of always going back to fix the damage, sure...

That... I can't fully answer. It could be a weight issue, it could also be the fact that steel is much stronger than aluminum. It's less brittle and can be harder. Put steel up against aluminum, and aluminum will almost always lose, unless you use some super soft untreated steel versus a treated and hardened aluminum (which isn't the case with airsoft materials.)

Hard to say. It might have done some good. It might not do anything at all. Hard to say.

Hmm... I'm all ears for any other options from anyone then.

Sound like tht would work.. except I don't have the a milling machine... unless I can find a cone barrel that has a bushing at the muzzle end.

What about I try the spring in the barrel mod, but instead of attaching the spring to the inner barrel, it is loaded against the outer barrel. Meaning that the spring pushes the outer barrel away from the hop-up unit at default. Haha I'm just making up things right now.

Hmm.. still unable to figure out how come the steel chamber did not work BEFORE the damage to the slide occur. I only bought the SD chamber AFTER trying the Creation chamber, which didn't work when the slide was whole and undamaged.

I'm that close to changing it back to the stock plastic barrel soon.

I was actually going to suggest that, but I'm too tired to form those words right now. I'm just glad you already saw it and figured it out for yourself. saved me some effor.t

Haha sorry mate, I'm still grieving right now.

Will try it tonight and if that doesn't work, plastic barrel it is and steel chambers on sale for cheap.

ILLusion, the main issue with their(ProG4/Airsoft Surgeon)'s older design is the absence of a lug on the left side, where your new lug is. Looking at both the Nova and SD slide they all have an substantial lug on that side contacting the left side of the chamber. Whereas on the ProG4 slide it is just a raise portion with some chamfering. Which I think makes a lot of sense considering how the Marui chambers are cut and you can get a lot more material built into the back side then the ejection port side. Maybe in their goal to make lighter slide they sacrificed that...

Yeah, I think so too.

Looking at jaoquinz pictures of his PGC slide, it looks like it was built the same way as the old models of the AS slides. The only purpose that part had was to keep the loading muzzle from shooting too far forward. I suppose at the time, they never thought about the barrel.

Talking to my contact there, he said that the original engineering designs were all based on compensated and/or hybrid type builds (seems that's all they were interested in building at the time for some superbling pistols), which added a 6th & 7th impact point and they would never have any problems with lugs 3 or 4 and they never considered lug 5 until recently when I started ragging on them. lol

make sense, I think before they start making Davidson Custom/Airsoft Surgeon mass produced stuff they were making slide for someone like "Fire" airsoft shop and stuff...which were all uber-bling-tastic racers....and most of which were WAs, and I have no idea how those are setup in terms of these detail...

I have a quick question in regards to this topic.

I was wanting to get a Airsoft Surgeons slide and a Guarder One Piece steel barrel.

Am I to understand that this would be a bad combination and would end in the same situation / damage?

This slide:
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...l?prodID=25925

With this barrel:
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...l?prodID=25320

Stay away from this combo?

Thank you for your advice....

Rico

DON'T GET GUARDER OUTER BARRELS

Did i say that right? Hang on, let me say it one more time so that it's clear

DON'T GET GUARDER OUTER BARRELS

I've always had problems with them, and many other users have as well - you'll have way more problems if you start mixing brands, especially precision parts such as the Airsoft Surgeon slides.

btw... if you want Airsoft Surgeon slides, talk to me, I can get those in for you, and cheaper than through Redwolf.

Alright quick update.

I tried the spring in the outer barrel trick and there's progress! Brought the outer barrel up and away from the hop-up all the time in the slide and minimised the slamming into lug 3A and 3B. However, with too strong a spring, the outer chamber would stay up and forward all the time and bind against the slide ie. chamber would not tilt down to facilitate the slide's action backward. So it was eaither sanding the slide's top underside until it allowed the chamber through (which would be a lot of material to sand away) or tweaking with the spring until there was just the right amount of loading to allow both the tilting action and for it to jump back into the chamber breach. In the end I found that the loading needed was very little in fact.

So even though it's far from finish, I'm happy with some progress so far. This should be a useful mod to hi-capas in general to minimise impact ie. damage on the slide.

So right now there's still a little binding of the outer chamber with the slide when racked back (still need more tweaking of the spring's loading inside the barrel), might try a non-linear spring so that it's easier to compress ie. chamber gives way easily to faciliate the tilt, but springs back reliably as well. I think the best combination would be as I mentioned, and the rear of the outer chamber still impacting the slide chamber breach's rear but only slightly to bring it back to battery. Will fill in the slide's initial damage with some nylon later to facilitate the outer chamebr going upwards into the slide chamber breach.

I'll report back on how it goes next time I get time to mess around with the gun.

what kind of spring? I haven't been able to find one lying around here that works fits the dimensional requirement....

A spare stock p226 recoil spring mate.

I just enlarged the inner diameter by flexing the spring a little and adjusting it slightly. You only need it larger on the last 4 or 5 coils on the muzzle end, to push the barrel and chamber forward SLIGHTLY. You might want it tight ie. stock recoil spring diameter on the hop-up unit end so it doesn't slide up and down the inner barrel. I secured the spring with some electrical tape. Snip off some coils if you have too much loading. You only need a little.

I'll take some pictures next time.

Glad to hear it worked.

I've found the internal spring techniques to work... but it does take some fiddling to get it right. However, I've only tried loading them so that they would naturally pull the outer barrel back. It works well for my hybrid setups, because the slide uses the hybrid stack as the extra smash point.

I generally use the stock recoil springs after upgrading them to enhanced ones. Like jaoquinz mentions, it is a bit tight, but some tweaking with a pair of pliers along all coils will open it up a bit to move a bit more freely on the inner barrel. I generally only use about 6 coils or less. Very little is needed.

Thanks for the advice guys.

Yeah I wish I had another impact point on my slide then all my troubles would be solved.

Illusion, the loading of the spring to push the barrel backwards is to prevent the chamber from rubbing against the slide isn't it? But with this setup ultimately the outer chamber still needs impact points on the slide to push the chamber forward and up into battery. Looks like the PGC slide's impact points are just too weak to take the abuse from a steel chamber. No wonder I always see that the pre-upgraded guns usally have plastic outer chambers.

My setup with the spring loading pushing the barrel forward minimises the damaging smash of the impact points on the slide lugs, but it now creates a dilemma of intermittent binding between the slide top underside and the outer chamber (which is being pushed forward and up by the spring inside) and thus not a very smooth cycle. Anyone with any ideas on how to remedy this?

Still keen on finding a compensator that fits on the outer barrel other than the SD limcat one. Emailed PGC to see if they still have any in stock. Hoping for a miracle as most retailers say that they're not any around anymore. If you guys have any ideas please let me know.

Of course the hybrid setup would be awesome, however trying to reuse the old slide. Was a present from my lady so not gonna scrap it.

I personally haven't seen any pre-upgraded guns with plastic chambers... I usually see them with metal.

You just happened to pick up a bad combo. :P

And yes, the spring loaded to push the barrel backwards is to prevent chamber rubbing against the slide.

Sigh.. just my luck then. I assumed that a PGC slide with a SD chamber would be a good combo. But that was probably too late after the intial damage from the Creation chamber.

Still looking for a compensator...

PDI makes one that will work for a 4.3
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...l?prodID=22477

Their 5.1 sets will work as well...but you have swap the barrel and cut the recoil guide.

Again, that mounts to the inner barrel, not the outer barrel. He needs a direct-outer barrel mounted compensator for the solution to work. Otherwise nothing will happen, since the inner barrel can't be pulled forward, and even if it could be pulled forward, it would be moving separately from the outer barrel. He's looking for a solution to pull the outer barrel forward.

jaoquinz, if your budget can open up a little bit, I can actually get you a high quality custom built one-piece steel outer barrel/chamber & aluminum compensator set. Please fill out your profile so I know where you're located and can get you a price quote accordingly. Keep in mind, this is not a cheap solution and is actually one of the most expensive solutions...

Hi guys,

Well I spent about 3 hours affixing a piece of nylon strip along the edge of the damaged area and epoxied it carefully then sanding it down to the right profile. A bit like car metalwork with bondo. When I was satisfied with that I reassembled the slide, racked it once and POP the new addition piece snapped off. Haha there goes one idea.

So still in the market for a compensator. I tried to see if the threads on the muzzle end of Creation outer barrel works, and I screwed the SD chamber onto it, and it works. So I'm wonder if the thread size on SD compensators are the same as their chambers. If so that means most SD compensators would attach onto the Creation outer barrel.

Also, I was wondering how a compensator is attached and how it sits when it is attached. I'm asking this because the outer barrel comes out of the front end of the slide by about 2mms, and I'm wondering if a compwould sit flush with the slide when attached. Because if it doesn't, then it defeats the purpose for me wanting it to be another impact point to bring the chamber up to battery. Anyone knows this?

Many airsoft compensator sets mount like real steel, which means you'd need a special outer barrel with threads on the outside of the muzzle. The compensator is then affixed to the muzzle of the outer barrel. Typically, it's attached by threads and affixed with a grub screw. The face of the compensator that the outer barrel mounts in to will also be sunk, so that the compensator will end up sitting flush against the slide. This is why I suggested this method.

Gotcha. Which means in order to use the SD compensators I would need to get the SD comp barrel set as well? Goodness thats already the price of a new slide...might as well get a new slide isn't it?

Would an SD comp screw into the threads of the muzzle on the Creation outer barrel? The diameter is the same as the SD chamber threads where the outer barrels screws into. Can anyone confirm is SD compensator threads are the same diameter as their chambers?

Well I did what simonyha did and it worked. Stuck a couple of layers of tape around the muzzle end of the barrel to mimick a comp and it worked flawlessly. For about half a mag before the tape flew off.. The amount of force at work is amazing. Seems like I'm gonna get a compensator after all. Another question.. would a comp be pushed forward slowly like how the tape did? Or would the SD comp barrel be a solid piece of engineering? I'm looking at a new comp barrel by PDI as well..

Irregardless thanks guys for the help!

So far I've learnt that damage on the slide from the steel chamber is inevitable and that the only way to minimise that is to minimise the impact on the rear lugs on the slide chamber breach. I screwed mine up extra fast with the incompatible chamber. The hi-capa slide impact point seems so minimal compared to the ones on the P226. Would the "beefier" slide be a better investment? I'm thinking a new slide or a new comp with the comp barrel would be about the same amount of money to spend. Which would be a better option?

Yes, SD comp barrel is required. I believe the part number is GSM934 or GSM935 (difference is in markings on chamber.)

I don't have an SD compensator on hand. You'll have to go to a shop to try it out (if they let you.)

UNCompany has some of the new compensators in stock.

Well I tried everything from forming a new lug 3B from epoxy, but it snapped off after 2 shots. Tempted to use some quiksteel instead, but that would be a last resort.

Looking up and down for compensators to fit, and there are no other option other than to have one custom made from ProG4 which is out of my budget. So after consulting Madmax and Illusion, decided to try "machining" a flange at the muzzle end of the outer barrel to pull the outer chamber into battery when the slide snaps forward.

Searching online for what to use as a flange, I couldn't find something suitable that could easily be bought off the streets. Then, my gf mentioned something about my rings, I realised, holy sh*t, a ring! Immediately I grabbed my outer barrel and tried to fit my ring into the outer barrel. It wasn't the right size, but I got the solution.

I marked a line on the outer barrel where the correct amount of protrusion from the slide should be so I know the right width for the ring to use. Then I brought my barrel to a street market that sells cheap jewelry, and found a size 16 silver ring. It was a snug fit, and I didn't want too tight a fit that I couldn't put epoxy in between.

There were steel jewelry as well, but I was afraid that that would into my aluminium slide's muzzle opening like the steel chamber did, so I'll leave that as a last option.

So I went home proceeded to file a groove on the muzzle's edge, and sanded the inside of the silver ring to roughen up the surfaces to be bonded. Then I mixed up some 2 part epoxy, and placed a strip of it in the groove I made in the outer barrel. Then I slid the ring over the muzzle's end, and gently hammered it in with a rubber mallet, as silver is pretty malleable.

After 15 minutes when the epoxy had cured, I chambered the edges of the ring with sandpaper, buffed both barrel and ring with a emery board.

Now I have bling on my hi-capa 4.3, and it works. Pulls the chamber into battery, and the silver doesn't eat into the slide as steel would. I cut the KA 150% recoil spring by 3 coils just to be safe, as I think that was probably a contributing factor to the destruction of my slide.

Here's some pics.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01107.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01108.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01109.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01110.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01111.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01112.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01113.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01114.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01105.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...z/DSC01106.jpg

Wonder how long that would last.

Very good!

I like your ingenuity and determination in getting your gun working right.

Unfortunately I think silver is too soft. Your ring may not last very long with repeated slide impacts. It might make sense to find a thin oring to put against the back of the ring to soften the hits. Even if the oring slowly dies, it's cheap and easy to replace.

Hi Madmax!

Thanks for dropping by!

Well I figured that silver was a little too soft, but it was either silver or steel rings. What would be the best? Alumnium I suppose? How did your setup go?

An o-ring might be a little thick, but I'll try it first. Might stick a tiny strip of foam behind the ring to see how that works out.

I'll report back on the deformation of the ring when it happens.

Dude...

Got to applaud the time, determination and resiliency that you've shown fixing your pistol.

I'm very interested to see how long it lasts.

If the fit is fine enough between the ring and outer barrel...perhaps soldering the joint would fix it permanently (might disfigure the metal though).

If you're in the building mood...make a compensator out of aluminum stock, drill and tap a hole through it to fix it onto the outer barrel. I know it's easier said than done...but you've shown skill so far! LOL

Good job. Glad to see you finally found a working solution. Keep us updated on the survivability of the modification.

Sweet, you got the brains and talent! Maybe you might succeed in your invention. :P

Thanks guys! Couldn't have done it without your help.

Well I know a compensator would have been a cleaner and more aesthetically pleasing option, but there were no on-the-shelf solutions for the 4.3 with a comp-ready barrel. I'm sure when one does hit the shelves with an affordable price that I'll be grabbing one.

Well Day 1 so far. Left it alone overnight now and fired half a mag this morning (must have scared the shit out of my neighbors) and checked the ring. The epoxy held on, and there's slight rubbing of the anodising on the muzzle end of the slide where it impacted the ring, but nothing to worry about as the silver is pretty soft. Ring's shape is holding up, and I'm thinking that soon it'll mate with the slide.

Maybe someone can make a fuller tapered bull barrel with the wider muzzle diameter than the slide muzzle opening so that the entire chamber assembly is pulled forward into battery. That would be the ideal solution wouldn't it? No damage on the slide at all.

On a side note, anyone know if I can still use a comp that attaches to the inner barrel? With the extra 1mm in diameter, would it fit flush into the opening of the comp?

You can still use an inner barrel mounted compensator, but it will stick out and won't mate properly with the slide due to your new "ring fix".

However, with a steady hand, you may be able to open up the compensator's entrance wide enough to accept the ring as well.

Hi Illusion!

Do you happen to have a picture of the connecting end of a inner-barrel mounted comp to show how the the entire assembly comes together? I'm thinking with a comp that might help keep the ring in place once it returns to battery. At least preventing the ring from turning into another projectile in the middle of shooting.

http://www.pbase.com/illusive_airsof...4502/large.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/illusive_airsof...4503/large.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/illusive_airsof...4504/large.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/illusive_airsof...4505/large.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/illusive_airsof...4507/large.jpg

So the protrusion of the outerbarrel from the slide would be sunk into the comp? I'm sure if I file 1mm around the diameter of the opening that it would work...right?

correct

AWESOME!! :) thanks.

Haha... after another mag the epoxy bond gave way and the ring propelled across the room.

Will try a higher strength epoxy weld in the weekend. Any ideas guys, short of welding? Grub screw ala PDI comp style would still move wouldn't it?

If you're going for a "handy-man" do it yourself fix...why not try a bigger thicker ring (you could even file/contour it to your slide) with a through hole and grub screw.

You could extend the through hole into the outer barrel and then you'd have a physical bond between the ring and the barrel. The grub screw would go right through the ring and into the outer barrel.

And/or freeze-heat fit. Size the ring so that it won't go on (just barely too small). Freeze the outer barrel. Heat the ring with a torch and press fit it on. Plan ahead for this type of stuff...you only get one shot at it.

It's amazing the pounding that these things take!

Make the ring out of gold anodized aluminum....then all the kids will be copying you...

I'm going to take pics later tonight of my PDI comp.
It comes with this ring that screws onto the inner barrel, but that's if you can get a 5.1 inner barrel which is longer for the ring to fit on.. So you can probably create the ring for it..?
Anyways, you live in Hong Kong dude! Plenty of parts around, I was thinking of selling you an 5.1 inner barrel, but looked at your location. lol

m102404: Freeze-heat fit? Wow interesting option... think I might do just that. But what material should the ring be? A silver ring would just melt under a torch wouldn't it? Hard to find alumnium jewelry around. Steel is too hard a material on the alumnium slide?

I would drill a hole into the ring.. if I had the tools to do so. If only I had access to machining tools, Ill be making my own comp to fit.

Mr.Hitman: Hey thanks appreciate that!

Yeah well I went to all the major shops Dentrinity, Tokyo Model, Guns 'n'Guys, Armed Forces, even the elusive Redwolf which only opens on alternate Saturdays until 1pm.. all say I'm f**ked please buy a new slide. :) I'll try not to until I screw up something else. Then I'll do what they say.

heh well new slide is still cheaper than buying a PDI compensator.
You speak English very very well! What the heck?!

Another way to secure the slide is to have a thicker ring, have holes drilled maybe 2 or 3, and finding a screw which uses an allen key, I forgot what screws they are called.. Anyways, and then thread it and to tighten the ring onto the outer barrel, after that, and secure it more, use more epoxy or glue or whatever..
And then you can probably use a stock recoil spring to reduce the slide power..

Only other way is a new slide. :P

Well the new slide would of course be another last resort option, as previously mentioned the slide was a present.

But seriously, are your slides on your guns ok with the steel chambers? Any major damage? If I properly fitted the slide to the chamber would there be minimal damage to my slide lugs 3A and 3B? Or would it fail eventually, but at least not within the first 3 days.. like mine. :P

90% of the pistols I've built are perfectly fine with steel chambers, even when the slide was soft die-casted zinc-aluminum.

You got burned on your deal. :P

As for fixing the ring on, a grub screw triangle should work well. Would recommend centre-punching or drill tipping in to the outer barrel where the grub screw would affix to to give a detent for the grub screw to grab on to. Secure with loctite, to make sure the grub screw doesn't back out.

@ Lanny, again, the PDI compensator solution is useless for the OPs needs. He needs his OUTER BARREL to have the compensator attached, not the inner barrel.
PS... Hong Kong was an English colony for 100 years. It's not surprising that the residents there can speak English when it was an official second language and taught in schools through a better part of the 20th century.

Hmm weird, well the comp is wide enough to stop the slide from pushing forward and the comp over laps the outer barrel.

I know, but if you watch the action of the cycle, as you pull the slide back, the outer barrel will retract from the compensator that is mounted to the inner barrel.

For all intents and purposes, the inner barrel is actually "fixed" to the midframe and never moves.

As the slide moves forward, when it gets to the point where it needs to start pushing the outer barrel forward, the compensator won't be there. It'll be floating about 5mm in front of the slide. Even if the slide were able to slam against the compensator, all it would end up doing is pulling the inner barrel, and again, the inner barrel isn't connected to the outer barrel. The outer barrel is free moving, and the problem right now is that the outer barrel isn't moving forward anymore. It needs a way to be pulled or pushed back forward. That's why an outer barrel mounted compensator (or ring) would work.

Ohhhhh! Now I get it. Need more physics in the brain. :(

Tried the freeze-heat fit or shrink-fit with a smaller ring. Can't seem to fit the ring over the barrel.. anyone got a link to a how-to for shrink-fitting silver over alumnium?

Update: I bought a 14mm to 14mm adaptor for an MP5K and rethreaded one end of it to fit the Creation 12mm threads outer barrel. It screwed in perfectly. Now I need to fin a PDI 14mm compensator. But all the retailers here in HK are out of those... are these discontinued? As usual nobody in the shops know anything.

I have a couple for sale... I got them from Den Trinity... Also try Tokyo Model, they just got some new ones in stock.

TMC is out of stock like their stores. Illusion how much is shipping back to HK haha..

LOL, wow, lucky compensator gets to travel back home now.

got a quick question. do the newer produced AS slides for hi capa slides work with SD/Nine ball barrels?

Define "newer produced".

100% of all Airsoft Surgeon slides that I've tested in the past several months (dating back to september) have failed catastrophically within 5 magazines of shooting, using all brands of metal barrels. A total of 5 slides were tested, and all were damaged to the point of no more use. I've used Tanio Koba, Creation, Shooters Design and even barrels made by the same factory that manufactures the slides (not Airsoft Surgeon.)

Even Clarence Lai has admitted that they will only work with the stock plastic outer barrels/chambers. Metal chambers will bash up the lug on the slide that pushes the outer barrel forward.

I've sent the slides back to Clarence Lai and I'm awaiting an exchange - he's promised me that they will rebuild these to new specifications that I have requested, so they'll probably come back to me with the new developments that I've already begun adding to the slides. They include a third lug as well as a thicker version of the lug that always gets destroyed.

My machine shop has recently developed a new advanced steel outer barrel compatible with all versions of the Airsoft Surgeon / Creation / Davidson Customs / ILLusion Kinetics slides that will prevent the damage and will even allow the slide to work if it's ALREADY damaged.

;) Is it based on the WA SCW barrel system? ;)
Great news. I might give TM hicapa based guns another go when you release the new barrel.

Nope

I'm waiting for an order to arrive - so in essence, it is already released.

If you have any special requests for chamber engravings or any special treatments (gold oxidation?) then they can also be preordered.

PS - where you been? You haven't come out to any more CAPS events!

Busy with classes, I'll start coming again once the summer starts.
Even got a couple aegs to test out. w00t

My apologies ahead of time for what is the mother of all necro-posts, but my question was heavily tied to this thread's topic . . .

Are the newer (as in, I got one two weeks ago) ProG4 slides reinforced to prevent this kind of damage when using a metal chamber? I do see a beefy-thick vertical lug on the slide wall opposite the ejection port, which doesn't appear to be present on Illusion's labeled image on the first page of this thread. Does that mean it's the new-and-improved version?

I have a Tanio-Koba outer barrel I was planning on using with the ProG4 slide, but I surely don't want to drop that in there if it's gonna wreck my slide in three or four mags!

Any input would be appreciate. If needed, I can take a pic of the new slide's insides when I get home this evening.

Thanks in advance,
Tuthmose

If its a beefy lug, then its been improved...the original one was very thin, and offered little resistance to stainless steel barrel...

Yes, new ProG4 slides are reinforced where the lug strikes the chamber.

Thank you both very much, gentlemen! I shall now commence assemblin' and tunin' . . .

I'm also assuming that, since the T-K chamber is aluminum, the danger of impact damage is minimized anyway? Any other pointers of which I should be aware to avoid damaging my expensive new bits?

-Tuthmose

Yup. Don't shoot it. LOL.

But seriously, if you're really anal about it, shoot duster.

And if if you can reinvest in a new barrel, the new fixed barrels increase slide life infinitely.

Even if you smash up the lugs on the slide, the new fixed barrels will work with the busted slide.

or shoot hybrid slide, and it'll have enough impact area to stop a truck....

well not quite, but enough for propane fueled GBB...

LOL - ok, point taken. What I should have said was "so I don't frag things too quickly . . ." :)


Ahhhh. [*mental lightbulb goes one*] The new-style barrels are fixed? Are they anything like the set-up on the Xtreme? I noticed that the Xtreme has a collar in front of the inner chamber that prevents the outer barrel from riding back. I wasn’t sure how that worked, until I realized that the outer barrel/chamber assembly also has a slightly shorter “leg”; the chamber doesn’t sit as high in the slide, and thus doesn’t need to drop backwards to disengage with the slide lugs. It wasn’t ever really engaged with them in the first place. Makes sense, I guess – chamber never goes rearward, it doesn’t really have to be slammed forwards. Do the new style barrels have a similar collar like the Xtreme, or just achieve this via the shape of the chamber leg and cutout?

-Tuthmose

They were based on the Xtreme barrel design. The chamber cover is lowered, and extra material is added in place of the plastic collar to prevent the outer barrel from moving relative to the inner barrel.

Thank you, ILLusion - I appreciate your sharing your knowledge!

-Tuthmose