What happens when a GBB freezes?
 

I'm asking this question because my gun case was mistaken for a toolbox and was put in the garage for about 7 hours. It contained my TM M.E.U. in a Nova Kimber Warrior metal kit along with 3x TM M.E.U. mags. When I ransacked the house and finally retrieved it from the garage it was supercold and had frost on it. I quickly disassembled it and dried as much as I could off but did not manage to take the hop up + inner barrel assembly out of the aluminum outer barrel because I was afraid that I would bend it out of shape again (I say again, because I bent/widened the gap that the hop up + inner barrel assembly is insert into while installing it by accident and had to fix it). All of the internals were well greased and the mags were well lubed the day before this incident. What kind of damage could the cold have done to my GBB? Are there any pieces that may have been destroyed by the cold?

edit: This has nothing to do with the gun problems I was having before as this unfortunate event happened earlier today.

I am very mad that this has happened.

Dont take my word on it but aslong as there is no moisture u youll be ok. I think it would be unlikly but i guess its possible to crack an o ring or crack the hop up rubber. I would say give it some test fires and see how it performes. Really when you shoot a GBB to much it gets supper cold anyways so i think all is ok. but maybe some other members can give there opinions too.

Id suggest keeping it at room temp. for a day or two to regain the natural state. Visually inspect it to see if you can identify any obvious deformations that might affect the operation. Like the user above me mentioned some things Id be extra cautious about my hopup rubber and o-rings.

Did you store the mags with gas in them? Is there any gas left in them at all, like when you just touch the gas release valve do you still feel pressure?

Don't force anything of course, if removing the barrel (inner or outer) gives more resistance than normal then Id apply a small amount of silicone oil to ease them out. If after all this all appears normal I'd try and fire off a round or two and see if anything has changed in its performance.

Do not put the thing on a heat source or anything as rapid cooling and warming can defect the metal parts, possibly beyond repair. As always though when in doubt do some research or get a hold of a gun doc that knows GBBs.

Hope nothing has been too farked as that sounds like a beaut of a pistol!

depending upon the actual type of materials used the inner and outter could have contracted at a different rate, being cold for so long. then bringing the gun indoors and quickly disasembling and warming up the parts. this could cause the parts not to return closley to machined size, given the tight fit of inner and outter barrels to begin with it is possibly they will not come apart again, now iam sure the gun will be fine however check the seals.

yes your gun is designed to operate a very cold temperatures but not for that length of time.

i do agree that sounds like a nice pistol, oohh kimber where are thee!

should be fine thou, maybe new rubber, and o-rings.

I'd say you didn't damage it at all.

Just let it warm up to room temperature on it's own and you'll be fine.

I drove 4-5 hours with my M9 in my trunk in -50c weather and all I did was let it warm up a little bit and it was good to go. However the magazines did travel in a backpack in the back seat so that did make a difference.

what about gas cylinder? my brother left it inside all time then use it immediate for game. will it result loss on power?

HAHAHA.... -50C ... only in Saskatoon..

I haven't had time to test fire it yet... I hope its okay though.

Edit: I'll update the status of the gun once I put a mag or two through it.

Though I don't have time or space to test fire right now, I did quickly check the pistol a few hours ago and the mags still had pressure in them. They were all half full the night before the incident. Would any of the rubber parts freeze and crack? What about the inside of the BBU. WOuld anything there be worn? How would I figure that out? By eyeballing you can't really see if nearly brand new rubber is damaged can you?

I just finished a like 4 hour game in -5. Wasn't very effective but there is no problems with it now

I have to agree with Styrak. In all honesty it should be fine, just let it warm up.

The gun is fine.

Avoid using it when its frozen, let it thaw at room temperature (i.e., don't heat it) and everything will be okay.

Clean it after it thaws to make sure theres no moisture (of special importance if you having anything with iron content). I would have actually avoided disassembling it while it was frozen, I think there's more chances of damaging something then (like the hop up sleeve which will be less flexible if frozen).

What happens when a GBB Freezes? It gets cold.

But seriously... nothing will break. Just let it warm up at room temperature and it will be fine. At worst some of the orings can freeze up, but they should be fine after warming up.

Never shoot it when its 'frozen cold'. Don't disassemble it ether.

It's a GBB, not a fine piece of precise mechanical and eletrical machinery.

That's a relief that nothing should be damaged. What are the signs and symptoms of a worn/damaged rubber o-ring or hop up rubber? I want to know what to look out for when I test the gun out.

If it doesn't work properly it's broken.

If it works it's not broken.

Relax. If/when something ever breaks you'll know.

I just tested my gun out.

Shots fire inconsistently. Air seal problem maybe?

Haha, good answer.

What does "shoots inconsistently" mean, exactly? i.e. feeding problems, gas usage, muzzle velocity, slide/barrel gets stuck, magazine cools down rapidly, etc. If you're more specific, someone with experience will be able to give you specific help/answers.

Some shots don't have a lot of power. There's an audible difference in the amount of gas let out too, and a general feel of weakness when its fired. The shots that I think are normal give out a bigger "pop" sound while the weak shots give out a "floonk" kind of sound. Sometimes it doesn't have much sound at all and the blow back is weak.

In about 10 shots, I may get 3-4 that feel weak.

Potentially, a valve knocker/valve problem? I'm thinking its likely something to do with the seals/valves on your mag; do you have a spare magazine that was not left out in the cold? Try shooting with that magazine, and see if there's any noticeable difference. Aw hell, I can't tell you much without taking a peek at the internals.

I'm not an expert on this, nor am I claiming to be. In fact, I should probably just leave this to a more experienced gun doc.

Take it to a local GBB doc!!!

Edit: never mind about trying another mag. I just read your original post again... yeaaaaaaaah, that sucks. Posting pics won't get much done, I do seriously suggest you take it to a gun doc for at least a diagnosis.

I don't think the mag seals are the problem. At the moment I don't have another mag... but if the seals were a problem I'd be able to hear a hiss wouldn't I? It could be a valve knocker problem... although I have no idea how a valve knocker could go wrong. Without the mag in, I peered into the mag housing to see if the valve knocker was doing what its supposed to do and it was. Racking the slide would pull the trigger back, and pulling the trigger would make it move forward. And it should hit hard, because I have an upgraded recoil spring in there.

As others said, the gun is fine. There are actually shitty rubbers out there that freeze and then crack.

So just seeing you got a problem, take apart everything, clean everything like sears, valve knocker, and re-lube except for mags.

Even though the sears and valve knocker, have nothing to do with the shots like hitting hard and soft, clean it.

What I think is your BBU, the piston head o-ring is creating friction and have seem to froze up in your nozzle.

Take your slide apart and test the nozzle. Move it out and let it return back in.
If it's really stiff, take it apart, re-lube and try again.

Upgraded recoil springs do increase wear on the sears - you do know that, right? Might not be the case with TM's, at least I understand that its not the case with TM Hi-Capa's.

As to a valve knocker, I was thinking something more along the lines of the spring that is attached to the knocker, or that the knocker itself has a fracture... But peering through the mag well won't show either of those. However, since the knocker is move forward with the hammer... I dunno.

As to a hiss of leaky seals? Nope, you won't always hear it - take for example, one of my KWA USP mags. If all is dead silent and you hold the mag up to your ear, I can barely make out a very, very slight hiss... sometimes. However, I can tell that something is leaking because leaving that mag filled up with gas for a week and a half will result in an empty mag. In your case, you might feel the results of it, like a rapid drop in power... but it really depends which seals are not doing their job. The seals I'm thinking about on yours are the ones at the top of the mag - I've noticed that these seals on my Socom Gear/WE original mags (more wear and tear on everything original on there than there should be for its age - but that's a result of buying a used gun) feel like... well, dying rubber, in comparison to my newer mags that have firm seals that actually form a complete seal with the loading nozzle.

Bring it to a gun doc. I still stick with that advice. There comes a point when countless hours of fiddling/experimentation is just not worth the time, and paying someone else with leagues of experience to take a look at your GBB for a few minutes just makes sense. At least, if its something more serious, they can fix it.

Ah. Stock TM piston. Yup... that could give you issues - then again, I have no experience with a 100% TM M1911/MEU. Good luck. CAPS people tend to know what they're talking about - listen to them lol.

Hm. I never thought it would be my BBU. I'm using an ILLusion Kinetics lightweight BBU and doubt its that but I'll check it anyway. Weird things could happen in the cold I suppose. I uninstalled the KM high flow valves and put in the stock one and its the same... actually worse outcome. It fires weaker and doesn't even eject the BB. I fired 10 blank weak shots until finally the slide didn't have enough power to rock back which resulted in a half cocked hammer and an un-fireable gun.

The nozzle is an Airsoft Surgeon one... and the spring is a little weird. That actually results in weak shots?

LOL! I forgot to ask, the shots you fired.. were they from the same mag that was left out cold? With gas still in it while it was cold?

Seems like you got the lightweight BBU from your pics. Is the piston loose? Have you loctite the piston the the unit? It's the Illusion Kinectics one, correct? If so, it's the 1 piece design, so try checking out the screw if it's loose.

Okay edit.. seems like you posted before me..
Check your BBU first, check the nozzle if it returns back in from pulling it out.
If it's fine, it's your magazine..

it returns back. But I found that the BBUs o-ring makes a very tight seal around the nozzle so it doesn't slide smoothly as it creates a suction.

Splash some silicone oil in there.
Splash more in the mag.
Test again when the magazine is warm.

Wait, there's pictures? lol.

Slono, a tight seal (from what I understand about aftermarket bits in the BBU, though I know not much at all about the IK lightweight BBU) between piston O-ring and loading nozzle is a good thing.

Bah, that was a waste of a post. Sorry, I'll shut up now and get some much needed sleep. Hope you figure out what's wrong with your GBB.

dammit, I took apart the nozzle....its ridiculously hard to get the small screw to line up with the insides again.

Edit: Its not a waste of a post Juicy, I appreciate any bit of insight I receive on my problems. Pictures are in the ILLusion 1911/2011 questions thread in the upgrades and discussions.

Which small screw to line up with what?

I put it back together eventually and lubed everything generously. The piston's screw was tight, as it was loctited by ILLusion himself when I purchased it from him. I test fired 3 mags each with 7 BBs each, and it still has the same problem. Since I cleaned the upper assembly, the slide racks back super smooth and there's no more roughness in the nozzle's forward and back motion either. I still have no idea what the problem is. If its a mag issue, then I don't know what it could be.

Do you have experience with KM high flow valves?

When you installed the KM high flow valve, have you put the correct shims in for correct strike height?

Has the gun worked fine before with the KM high flow valve in the magazine?

The screw for holding the valve blocker! Yup, that's a bitch to get in there properly.

Hmm, interesting. If the shims weren't installed the valve won't open all the way - is this correct Hitman? I do understand that the gun worked fine before the freezing incident (right?), so I have a feeling that the high flow was installed at least half-decently.

Huh. I just read the most recent posts in ILLusion's Hi-Capa thread; Slono, you said you installed the kit yourself with no prior experience. You got balls, man - but did it work after you installed the kit? Personally, I tightened the slide rails on my Socom Gear (I know, its just a WE - nasty "tolerances", I agree) and found it works just fine in indoor weather... and anything above 10C - however, if the operating temperature is lowered, or moisture is added to the picture (not sure which one it is yet), the gun will need a really good cleaning of everything in order to function properly again. Interestingly enough, it suffers from semi-"cooldown" effects, sort of like those that Slono is facing with his, in that many strikes of the valve knocker just don't have enough oomph to kick the slide back fully and do much more than give a slight puff of gas to the BB. Unfortunately, I have no idea what causes this - but its something to consider...? Perhaps someone can tell me wtf is going on with mine? lol

I still think you should take a closer look at those mag seals. Like Hitman said, the rubber used on those tends to crack when frozen - that would be a likely causation of your ineffective gas use (but I have no idea why it works sometimes and doesn't other times - maybe its just a small crack?). Lube the fuck out of that seal if you must (once again, like Hitman said). Or hell, even pull those seals out and dump them in a silicon oil bath - you never know what that may/may not do! I find that's saved my mags a few times.

Oh no! I just saw pics of your Kimber in the 1911 thread... nice looking piece, you've got there. I'm sorry to hear that that's the one that got frozen - though its nothing that a few new mags won't be able to fix, from the sounds of things. Perhaps find a friend/guy you play with who has MEU/1911 mags (stock, or not) and try one of his out?

As to the flared mag well, which one did you use? Sorry, that was unrelated to helping you out here.

It gets really cold.

Beyond that, it's fine. Just don't fire it with a hot mag or you may crack the plastic parts (nozzle, cylinder bulb.)

Recoil springs don't put any weight at all on the sear, so that statement is incorrect.

I threadlocked it for him.

My bad. Maybe that's just me thinking that from a thread I read a while back on clones. Then again, clones are a whole different world - as Brian's told me in a rant (or two) already.

I'm too lazy to correct my uninformed post - so I hope future readers read this far into the thread lol.

Solon, u I have kjw 1911 and MEU mags at the store, if you want to come test them out you can

This problem was happening before the freezing incident.

He even tried my mags (which work fine in my Warrior) and the problem continued to exist. So it's not the mags.

My verdict is still on a messed up slide/barrel set. What you guys don't know is that his barrel ate the lugs in the slide, causing the slide to lock up to the chamber and have occasional weak shots. Repeated attempts to continue to force it to work without proper lube and experience ended up gouging out quite a bit of material from the slide lugs.

My temporary solution to him at the time was to apply some grease to the barrel, as the tackiness of the grease would allow the slide to "grab" the barrel and pull it back. This temporarily solved the problem, but continued to persist after a short period of time.

Turns out Slono didn't know the difference between oil and grease... and applied a light oil instead of a grease, which is why the problem came back after working for a short while.

Did you apply the grease that I told you to use, Solon?

Ahh ok I see, yeh chewed up lugs could cause that, maybe try putting in the stock plastic outer barrel and see how it works

Yes, white lithium grease was applied that same day to the outer barrel, slide, and rails.

When I load the mag into the gun and then rack the slide sometimes I get a misfire. Once that happens I have to unload the mag, rack the slide again and then put the mag back in before the gun functions. Whether it fires with full power or not is a different story.

I think you should go and see illusion again and get him to order new parts for you. As he said he had a temporary solution. So in time it would have needed replacement and now it sounds like its the time. maybe you should get him to instal the parts for you as well. Illusion is very smart when it comes to things like this. So if he says this part is messed or broken I'm willing to bet he is right.

+1. Do what Jon35 said, it sounds like a solid plan to me.

Bleah... not that I don't like ILLusion, LOL, I just wish I could do it myself so I could learn more and use that knowledge to help others.

Well it sounds like you did it wrong last time. You need new parts thats a fact. maybe illusion will let you watch so you can learn.

Yup, that's true.

I understand that - in fact, I often feel the same way. However, there comes a point when asking for advice from someone with much more experience than you is just a better use of time; and I would consider the installation of a kit for the first time, with little-to-no experience has way overstepped that line.

Just go and see ILLusion. To me, he seems like the kind of guy that would be more than happy to let you sit and watch - he isn't at all about making himself a profit and keeping customers as customers. I find that he's very good at giving really good advice, even when he himself could have attempted to sell a similar part to me; I have a feeling that if you took your GBB to him and had him fix it, he'd be even more receptive to giving you proper instruction.

I don't think there's ever a line to overstep unless you're in debt and have no money to replace anything you might break in the process of learning. I saved up enough to ensure the replacement of most things if I ever broke them. In other words I essentially insured myself from any mistakes I made that would result in damages. The experience I've gotten from doing this is priceless, albeit far from painless.


Yes. That I will do. It seems like I've done all I can and more and still cannot rectify the problem.

True that, from what I can imagine. Man, I would have gone nuts if I were in your position - I admire that you managed to stay cool. :cool:

Any gun docs out there familiar with 1911s other than ILLusion? He's a busy person and our schedules may not line up...

I just tested it out and the answer to your question is, yes, it does cycle, but its somewhat weaker than than normal (in that weather)... so don't expect to be getting long range kills with your pistol!