Worth the Switch?
 

I have assembled quite the arsenal of AEG's over my years of playing airsoft. I have bought, I have sold. Generally good times all around, but I have always hoped for greater reliability, greater realism.

Now that GBBR's are making a come-back and appear to be working the way they were initially envisioned, it leaves me with one question:

Is now the time to make the switch?

Yes.

depends, some will say yes, some will say no.
personally until I prefer a AEG

honestly, it all depends on you.

As you know, there is a higher cost with everything. Less rounds in the gun etc etc.

To me, there are several primary concerns with GBBR that lead me to the conclusion that it would be unwise to invest in (given my current situation):

1. The fact that the mags hold less BBs
- to me this is an issue. Not a huge issue, but an issue none-the-less. Im not saying that im a Midcap or Hi-cap whore, quite the contrary, i use low caps and nth but. However, the whole realcap thing is, IMHO, very detrimental to airsoft as airsoft doesn't even come close to the ballistics of real guns, or even high-end pellet guns. So we need the extra ammo to make up for that.

- this is more of an opinion than advice to you

2. the general lack of use
- This is where GBBR loose their allure to me. As you may know, i have a Tanaka Kar98k. I am now selling said gun. Why? Because i can only use it during summer months. With GBBR, you will be forced to use it only on rare occaisons. That is why i PRAY that they make an full wood/metal AEG G43. it can be used ALL times of the year, regardless.

-As i can see, you are in ontario, so you know how our weather is. Indoors, its great. If you want to use a GBBR for CQB, awesome, but all means, but for general gamability, i dont think it is a viable option, especially for outdoors

(for indoors, this point and my first point are negated because of the tight quarters)

3. the general inconsistency of GBBR, to me anyway, is a real disappointment. For me, its all about the accuracy. And airsoft has a hard enough time (comparatively) keeping this. a GBBR reduces this accuracy inherrently because of its power source

- now i know you may be thinking that you can negate points 2 and 3 with a CO2 mag. In truth, yes you can, to some degree, but no matter what, AEG's will be more accurate. and to me, that is the big thing. to be able to hit that you see.

- again, in CQB, this isn't an issue. the only issue that CQB presents to GBBR, is the FPS limit, which can be lowered via an adjustable nozzle.

4. The price. I know, i know, we live in canada. But even by canadian standards, GBBR are a pricy endeavor. Factor that in to their limited game time (due to weather) and the price you pay for mags that hold few bbs AND soak up gas... it isn't a pretty picture :(

again, these are just my thoughts. im sure you have already considered all of them on your own

GBBR's do not work in Canada cold. Maybe on CO2 (pain in the butt)...maybe not. The last outdoor night game...definitely not on propane.

Guys that shoot a working GBBR love 'em. If you want realistic function (all except failure to fire clearing)...they're your ticket.

The ticket is costly though. If you want something confidently solid, you're going to pay for it. DO NOT CHEAP OUT on GBBRs. They're not mainstream enough to be 2nd gen cloned to a cheap but working version.

G&P/WA type stuff...IMHO...are "builders" guns. If you want to trick out and pick every part/spring/pin...they're the way to go.

In my experience...WE's are solid and work. Metal M4's (and prob the 416/PDW) are solid. Plastic is plastic and unlike an AEG SCAR...there's lots of heavy metal banging around in a GBBR SCAR.

Mags are bitch. They might leak, they might not. They may work well in your gun, they might not. So far...there's no magic bullet for mags. Plus they're heavy, expensive and you really don't feel like tossing them around like sub 10$ plastic mags.

Unlike some guys who have them and have just put a couple of mags through it, I've skirmished my WE M4 on numerous occasions. It works. It's much more "realistic" in controls, trigger feel (it's an actual hammer/sear), noise feedback (and dead man's click) and handling. Mags are limited to 30rnds...but I think that's a good thing.

So...they're expensive. The mags are so-so. They're temperature sensitive.

But once you shoot one...it's all worth it, really...it is.



P.S. Put it this way...if you come by to visit and shoot it for a couple of mags...then pick up an AEG and shoot it...there will be no-doubt at all in your mind as to which one you'd prefer to use. When/where/how and what'll take to use one...those are the questions. Personally, I'll just keep it's use for indoors until it warms up outside and then I'll put it through it's paces in field games (I got it late in the season last year and didn't hit a field game before the chill set in).

Do you like to play regularly with a reliable tool? If yes, don't get a GBBR

If you like to drill and use airsoft as a training tool.. a GBBR might be for you.

AEG's are vastly superior in gaming.

If you have the cash, then do it up, there's nothing stopping you from having a reliable (in proper weather conditions) GBBR except money. If indoor is all you play, then that's an added incentive.

GBBR for those summer games(and CAPS matches) and keep an AEG for back up. The GBBR are not that reliable in general, mainly because the force is higher and wear and tears directly affects the performance immediately. You need to look after them and look after them well. They are loads of fun to shoot(and work on), but they are PTW level money to be used properly. So they are not for faint of wallet....

Yes you can get AGM or JG or whatever. Eventually though you'll be spending PTW money to fix it. If you have not given up already.

As far as performance goes, they can be as accurate as any AEG(and can often be more powerful, especially with heavier BBs), but to expect AEG level of full auto firing accuracy and consistency is not realistic. The gas dynamic does not work as reliably, and the "fun" in having blowback demends more on shooter(of course not RS level, but more than holding a sewing maching). The game style will likely change.

It is an interesting time to look at GBBR though. With names like KWA and RS into the pool, there will be more options out there, and hopefully results in better products...

I bought a GBBR intended for use indoors. For outdoor games, it just does not have the reliable range and accuracy (FPS changes with gas pressure changes) nor convenience (expensive mags hold too few rounds, need to carry propane with you, GBBR doesn't work in cold temperatures) to stay competitive with AEG players.

Have both on hand wherever you go. Have a good GBBR and a good AEG. When it's warm outside, use the GBBR. Don't make it one or the other. If money is tight, stick with an AEG until you can have both. A GBBR takes airsoft to the next level of realism, it's an awesome piece to have. And that makes it worth the buy.

Guess I post my 2 cents:
I never handle an AEG I'll give you that, spring and gas stuff mostly.
I'll never understand why people keep complaining about the cons of GBBRs (some are fair critisism I admit)
1) Mag Capacity...Dude why don't you just go play paintball in spray n pray, the whole airsoft thing is real sim, 30 rounds should be plenty. (All 3 current have mags can give 2X 30 rounds on auto in 1 charge, including Magna)

2) Accuracy, alot of the complaint comes from the hopup, go bug tm to make it, Im sure it won't be a problem anymore, as for right now Magna has Prime Hopup which is really really good but $75USD. The other blame is recoil which makes me argue even more for real sim.

3) Firepower, lemme ask you which modern military train soldier to engage in auto all the time? Auto is only for covering fire and storming. Semi auto is the way to go.

From Arguement standpoint Im gonna use two airsoft:
Systema PTW 2008 Max (Lipo mod) against
Prime DIY (you can get Bomber or Inokatsu for fac built) GBBR

Pro Milsim: Magna system wins hands down
Pro Spray-n-pray: Systema PTW

As for temperature problem...heres something, using Gas vapour chart of CO2, NPAS, and Pro-Win mag it is theoratically allow GBBR use in Winter. Here goes:
Pro-Win can handle 500psi easily, with NPAS you can reduce fps (might want to set to like <5% instead of 100% power) at temperature below 15 you can safely (on paper) use liquid co2 into mag. -25-30 is the prime temperature...If thing goes right basically GBBR (magna) cannot function: -10 to 15

For me it all depends on how you want to play. If your more into milsim then GBBR are the way to go. They need to be maintained a bit more, but i enjoy that side of it tbh. Firing them makes all the money worth it for me.

In saying that i still have my aeg as a back up if my gbbr runs to hot or anything goes wrong. If you can afford it. have both. that way you can choose on the day.

My concerns with magazine capacity are only in games where there are no ammo restrictions.

I play airsoft because I want to have fun, not because I want to be griefed and cannot return the favor to spray and prayers carrying 8000 rounds in hicaps on their bodies.

A GBBR is great fun in an ammo restricted game. It's also economics with the price of GBBR mags.

If it were up to me, I think everybody should be playing all games with real caps, using GBBRs, and with mandatory orange tracers once the sun goes down.

perhaps it's just the local player base...or maybe just that there's been an explosion of new players this past year..

but the difference between the two groups of players has never been clearer (IMHO).

There's guys who in general prefer "mil-sim" (aka serious, aka realistic, aka stuckup, aka "elitist") events that have structure, objectives, planning, real cap, limited ammo, comms, etc. In truth, some "mil-sims" are very easy going and probably not much more than a formalized skirmish...others are very well done.

There other type are the "fun" games. No ammo limits, short-ish skirmishes, lots of head-on confrontation. They're lots of fun too. They tend to draw out newcomers and lots of them. Drop of the hat and you've got 30-50 guys (at least at the local place here) ready to go. It's an absolute shoot fest and a lot of "bunker standoff sniping" but they're fun for a no-worries type of fun shoot.

At a mil-sim...in decent temperatures a reliable GBBR would hold it's own. I'd take 12-14 mags, shoot semi and leave the suppression to the SAWs. GBBR vs. AEG at a milsim...I expect to be just fine. Indoor or outdoor. (NOTE: GBBRs do not do well if you're shooting down a ladder at the floor/room below you....you'll get a lot of gas venting :))

At a fun shoot...you're going to be at an ammo disadvantage, depending on your style of play. If you want to suppress and trade round for round all night you just won't have enough ammo. For most fun shoots guys tend to run mid-caps and you're looking at a 4:1 ammo disadvantage. But...real caps are fine, just depends on you shooting buddies and how you play.

No, it's not time yet. Wait another 12 months. There are suppose to be stuff in the pipeline superior to anything currently available (I don't mean Canada, I mean in general).

pffft....in 12 months half of us might not even still be into airsoft...(I think Wilson has mentally retired at least once already :))

People and companies can make all the promises, boasts and hints that they'd like...but personally I'll believe it (whatever thing, improvement, accessiblity, part, piece, function, etc... "it" may be) when I see it.

Airsoft is full of promises and claims. Some come through, others never do. Rarely is anything a sure thing.

Deal in the here and now...I wouldn't hold my breath for anything related to airsoft, life's too short for that.

if you wan't reliability and not having to worry about replacement parts and wan't to game go with The kjw m4's if you wan't an m4.the parts to adjust the fps are realy cheap as well 20-30$

If you don't mind a few things crapping out get a wetti , but apparently they have moved factories to improve quality on there HK416,PDW ect line. i odered a hk416 but they went out of stock so i couldn't get it

or you could wait an unknown amount of time for possible vapour ware VFC , KWA , ect

My biggest concern about gas rifles was that regardless which you bought at what price, you always needed to upgrade a bunch of parts to the tune of hundreds and hundreds of dollars in order to get the gun reliable enough to field and to reduce the velocity down to field-legal numbers. I had been tempted for a long time by the gas monster, but resisted, because I didn't want to HAVE to mess with the gun.

However, now I think there are viable alternatives that will perform reasonably well out of the box, or with only minimal work required. I don't know if there will ever be an "ideal time" to make the switch from electric to gas, but now is a good time to take a good look at the offerings.

I, for one, decided it WAS time for me to take a leap. And I decided if I was to do it, I was going to do it right and go all out with the "no tomfoolery required model". I grabbed up an Inokatsu M4 SOPMOD Super version. You start off with a real-steel grade receiver, all steel internals, and field legal velocity out of the box. Expensive? Damn straight it is. But it's what I've been waiting for, and it's finally here. I'm sure I'll be upgrading it and modding it in the future just as I have with all my AEGs, but the key feature here is that I don't HAVE to and can use it as-is.

So now I play the waiting game and wait for it to arrive.

ooooh...the Super. Nice.

Here's my WE AWSS/WETTI so far (actual out of pocket...not some might be web price):
- rifle + a couple of mags $850
- steel part #66 $27 (mine didn't break...I just swapped it out preemptively)
- RAtech nozzle adjustable NPAS nozzle kit $60
- madbull steel fill valves (free technically...but they're $20/3)

Other sh*t it didn't need but messed around with:
- "CO2" upgrade kit $70...didn't need it but it was nice to have other bits to mod test things with
- couple more mags $54/each
- DD MK18Mod0 rail...$100-ish can't remember
- Noveske Fire Pig (dunno, had it forever...think it was $30-ish)
- Magpul CRT stock (free...someone gave it to me in a trade...it's a clone, dunno what they go for but it fits nice)

I've skirmished with it at least 6-8 times...I've used it at CAPS (and I don't use flaky sh*t for that...there's points and prizes on the line)...I've freely lent it out to CAPS guys who didn't have a rifle for several matches. I'm 4000+ rounds...and stopped counting.

That's it. Obviously some of the stuff is cosmetic...but the parts in the first list are "nice to have on hand stuff".

....Plus BBs and the crate of Coleman gas cans that I've gone through so far :)


But that's a WE WETTI. I wouldn't start a G&P build up unless I had $2k ready to go.

Well, Tys, that's not bad at all. But I think it illustrates nicely where GBBr are nowadays. They're starting to become a viable option. When you think back to when WA first released theirs, they've come a long way. It was horribly expensive, fired super hot, had weak internals, crap plastic externals all over, etc. By the time you had that gun upgraded to a solid, reliable, field-worthy (and legal) gun, you'd doubled the price of the initial gun.

And of course, the first generations of other brands were also quite expensive to get into a fieldable gun. That's changing, and for the better.

Yes, certainly you are correct Crunch. I wouldn't touch version/gen 1's or 2's of any GBBR system...past, present or future.

Anyways...have fun with the Super Crunch...I hear that they are, well "Super" :)

My take
 

I run at WE AWSS M4 ... it has worked out of the box..
put an adjustable nozzle in it and replaced part 66 ( thanks Tys )

I have a dozen mags

Other than that Ive made external changes.. Rail, stock grip ...

It is my GO TO gun, my primary arm ..

Keep in mind that most of my action is indoors CQB, short sharp engagements.

The gun has worked without issues.. and is a nail driver at CQB range. out to 30 m

I've fielded it .. but it has all the same limitations as an AEG outdoors .. it's a poor simulator for a rifle at typical combative engagement distances.. you can see people long before you can engage them.. ( often) so it sucks as much as an AEG .. but it has worked as flawlessly outdoors as in .. and it shoots long and hard.

I'm a convert.. and I expect my GBBR will be the only AR platform I will own.. AS or RS

I have had the chance to skirmish my WE Scar in acouple of local games last season. From periods of rain to sunshine it preformed flawlessly. The 30 rounds mags does put you at a disadvantage vs AEG users. But the thrill of realism and the clanking of metal is awesome. Every GBBR platform has it's flaws and if you are comfortable tinkering and fixing your own guns. If you are going to get your feet wet in the GBBR scene, I would say KJW M4. Entry to the GBBR platform is lower and good reviews on reliability and you could game it right out of the box.

Who ever say it take 2k to make a working GBBR is totally wrong, every platform could work that way...except External air maybe...

Tanio-Koba/KJ: $1100 for metal, $550 for cansoft, mags are approx $45, affordable, you can get a standard loadout (6+1 mags) buy purchasing additional 5 making cost starting at $750. Either use a new fps adjustment (rumour) cost $25 or shorter innerbarrel to reduce fps by 50

WE AWSS: A lil pricy with the entire cartel imho, does not shoot as straight as Manga (not my words, its a basic statement from gasgun forum) Only CO2 System currently. Mags cost about $50-60, Gun cost approx $1100 for AR-15, and $950 (dont quote me on pricing I dont know much for WE)


Magna:
-Inokatsu, Dont go this unless you absolutely want it...then dont complain the price (need hopup, and thats it. It shoots 395 average at 25 degrees)
-G&P WOC, Best choice, things need to replace...NONE, it shoots 380 stock on propane (mind the 210mm innerbarrel, so pick a CQBR setup) $1200-1400CDN for metal receiver or Cansoft version (via someone build it using WOC + clear lower) can be bought $750-$950 (depending on model)
-Bomber Same as WOC, except it use Prime Receiver...prices are higher as such (EST. $2000)
-JG, not bad start, need to replace some part and hope you don't mind the plastic receiver ($300)
-AGM, first gen only receiver and buffer tube are good to stay long term, currently its pretty good, just need to replace bolt catch, trigger sear, BCG, nozzle ($600 to make it work)

Mags for magna:
AGM current gen: $30 (mind the additional 200g weight)
GHK: $60 (if you don't mind stiff magwell for WOC, seems to be only woc)
Pro-Win: $82 (a lil expensive, but its better than WA except fps consisteny losing to Super Version)
G&P: $52 (beware fill valve might leak, no high quality replacement part)
WA Standard: $120 The standard for bench mark for 2 years as the best...currently tie with Pro-Win. (need G&P O-Ring kit)
WA Super: $140 The best magazine available.

Setup:
Cheapest: JG -$300 (comes with 1 mags, doesnt leak =) )
6X G&P Mags -$310
=$600

Mid-Budget
Cansoft WOC: $800 (comes with a G&P mag)
Get another 6 G&P mags, and you get yourself a basic load out

High
WOC $1300
6 Pro-Win Magazines $500

Corrected the price for the KJW it's 650-700 for the full metal over the half clear and there is a velocity reducer

I know there's a velocity reducer, just not popular for some odd reason, I'm not really good on price anything other than Magna,

It only came out recently and it's known to all KJW users , i don't understand why the Kjw hasn't caught on as much as the others it performs amazing and cradle airsoft is coming out with a Stagnag mag

yup kjw m4 are far better rifle out of the box mine is Canada version doesn't give me any problems recently I just bought an AEG and until now its on repair motor is not working well gearbox keeps on breaking hopup is weired to adjust. Too much of the moving parts when you remove the mags bb's is falling on the floor some times it spit 3 bb's at one time some times bb's just fall out on the barrel pretty weired. my gbbr nope nothing like that tanio koba is fine tuned gbbr load, pull and shoot.

I would say ,if you can afford it,have both. I have a few GBBR's ,my favorite's right now are the KJ's. I know they're going to work.The prime and ino builds shoot nice ,but things break or wear. Mind you,for those night games that cool down a little too much ;) I have the PTW in the truck, just in case.

They're alot more fun to shoot IMO.