[Parq]

I was recently going to buy the G&G CM16 Raider-L but after doing research and reading this detailed post on another forum I was very turned off. Im not sure what to do anymore :banghead: My budget is 230CAN or 280-300CAN if charger is included + mods for it. I was thinking JG or DBoys as it says down here but I dont know what to get, I need something that will last me, something that has a strong frame (Metal/Polymer) and something easily upgradable and overall looks good. Please if somebody could help me by finding something off torontoairsoft.com or blackwidowairsoft that would be great. Im not a pro, moreover a beginner but i dont want to get sucked into the cheap stuff that these retailers try to sell you. Please help, thanks.
Heres the post:

Official Facts and Notes on G&G CM (Combat Machine) AEGs: I was bored and procrastinating homework lol

Note*[If you want to run the CM stock, it will be fine.]

It's $150 for the gun, $25 for a good charger and $25 for a 9.6v NiMh minitype. *read full post to find out how I found these numbers*

This is the most popular setup for beginners using the CM. So for $200+shipping you have a usable beginner gun.

Or, you can get a DBoys m4 for $160. The DBoys comes with a battery and charger and it comes with a full metal body.

Or, you can get a JG m4 for $140. The JG comes with a battery and charger but has plastic externals (worse quality than the CM and an awkward grey color, but not bad).

That being said, of the most popular budget guns the CM is the most expensive to buy and use. Then you go to the parts breakdown.

The CM uses:
- a thin aluminum barrel (can't effectively polish, lots of extra vibration)
- a plastic one piece hopup (fine but weak and loses setting)
- a shell that is off spec for certain receivers
- a shell that is weak even when radiused
- terrible, high resistance wiring
- incredibly weak motor (even for stock motors)
- weak spring guide with no bearings
- weak spring, but functions fine
- terrible piston, very weak and wears down faster than normal
- weird piston head (manufacturing seams KILL air seal)
- thin aluminum cylinder (polishing problems again)
- some have Ebb (Not counting this as a negative, BUT this means the cylinder has a weird port, and THAT is a negative since it worsens the already bad air seal)
- nylon bushings in old models, brass bushings in newer ones. These are weak materials that wear down and cause gear shafts to break. (Newest models might have steel bushings, I haven't checked recently)
- decent gears, not the strongest from guns in the price range, but not bad
- meh cylinder head, it does it's job fine, but it is weaker than others in the price range
- bad air nozzle, same with all budget guns
- gearbox shell screws are on the opposite side of every other company...not sure why
- good tappet plate
- good bucking

The CM comes with really weak parts that wear down prematurely. The catch is; that the CM is tuned better than the other guns in its price range OOTB. This means: if you leave the gun stock it will perform how it does for a long time, sometimes outlasting other guns in its price range. The problem is once you want to upgrade the CM for better performance, you need to replace almost every single piece. The parts inside the gun are too weak for any setup more stressful than stock performance on a 9.6v NiMh, and even with that sometimes the motor burns out and the piston wears down.

On the other hand, both JG and DBoys guns can be bought for cheaper and have amazing quality parts (strength wise) that can take abuse of higher stress setups. Their flaw is that they are not tuned very well OOTB, so QC issues can cause some to fail prematurely.

I ran a 70rps DSG with all stock JG parts on an m170 spring. Only 4 pieces in the gun were not stock JG, those being a SHS 15t piston, siegetek gears, Super Shooter spring guide and a ZCI air nozzle. That's over 80% of the factory gearbox used in a 70rps build. I even used the stock JG motor.

I ran a 55rps DSG on an m170 spring with JG gears, DBoys piston head, DBoys cylinder head, DBoys cylinder, JG tappet, JG miscellaneous small pieces and a JG gearbox shell. The only parts not stock JG or DBoys included a lonex air nozzle, Siegetek DSG, Lonex A2, SHS 15t and a ZCI spring guide.

This is why CMs are not recommended by techs or more advanced players. They run fine stock, but once you want to upgrade they become a money pit, and they were already the most expensive budget gun option.

The one advantage CM guns have is their externals. A nice quality polymer is used and they now come in much flashier options than the competing budget brands, however these come at a cost as well, most notably:
- one piece molded outer barrel (triangle sight is not removable)
- stuck with all plastic externals



[In reply to MaxChairSoft]
While I respect your point, as it does make sense, anybody buying the CM is not going to buy a LiPo with it. 7.4v or 11.1v. A CM is a beginner gun and marketed strongly towards the younger less experienced (in making purchases and in playing airsoft) crowd. That being said, they are buying this due to marketing, and when they notice they need a battery and charger, they are also buying these due to marketing. The "NiMh smart charger" for $25 and a 9.6v NiMh for $25 from an Airsoft retailer are marketed with the CM. If a buyer did the research to buy a properly priced battery and charger, they would have also found out the flaws in the CM and most likely wouldn't be buying it anyway.

Beginners buy the gun, they also chose the accessories. IME this is the most common setup for a CM user.






[In reply to Falco]
Just so there is no confusion, I am ignoring special deals or retailer sales.
Let's say you wanted to buy the same battery and charger for all three options:

A CM is $150 base right? Now investigate:

A JG is $140 with a battery and charger, so even if you also bought the same new battery and charger you have to buy for the CM, you still save $10 and have an extra battery now.

A DBoys is $160 with a battery and charger, so even if you also bought the same new battery and charger you have to buy for the CM, you would only spend $10 more than if you bought the CM, however not only would you have an extra battery, but full metal receivers as well, for only $10 more.

Now, if you didn't want to buy a new battery and charger for the DBoys or the JG, you would save $40-$60 as stated above, which can be used to buy things such as:
- magazines
- BDUs
- Chest rigs, beginner vests, pouches
- attachments for your gun
- internal upgrades for your gun

Also, every single point I mentioned above (internal and gun aspect wise) is a proven fact. I have owned all 3 types of guns and worked on numerous versions of the three for customers. Everything listed is a fact.



[In reply to marine]
It may be different in your experience, however every CM user I have ever met had the same 9.6v NiMh and "smart charger" from an airsoft retailer.

If you do research on which gun, battery and setup to get, I am sure somebody would point out that you can save money by buying the battery and charger from "x" sight instead of from the retailer, however they also would have been recommended a different gun 9 times out of 10.

So, if somebody is buying the combat machine, it is usually due to all the advertising by major retailers or advice from other beginners. This means the battery and charger they get will also come from retailer advertising and advice from other beginners (who got their stuff from retailer advertising...see where I'm going?)

AND, even if you still disagree, which I noted in my above responses as a valid argument, I did another price breakdown at the bottom of my above post accounting for the price of the more expensive battery and charger setup in each situation. You still save money opting away from the CM (except with a DBoys, but I consider metal receivers and an extra battery more than worth the $10 extra).

If you want to argue that I would spend:
$140 on a JG and be done with it (8.4v NiMH + cheap charger = included)
$160 on a Dboys and be done with it (8.4v NiMH + cheap charger = included)
$170 on a CM and be done with it (8.4v NiMH + cheap charger = $20 added to $150 base)

Go ahead, you still save money opting away from the CM even if you get the cheapest battery and charger combination, and you have the exact same setup for each rifle. I just assumed this was self explanatory from looking at the base prices of each gun. I don't see where the argument against "saving money" is here. And since you save money ANYWAY, I assumed I would get my numbers (for original price comparison at the top of this post) from the most common setups for each gun, as that is what the majority of players will encounter.

To review prices:

JG minimum to work = $140
Dboys minimum to work = $160
CM minimum to work = $170

JG average = $140
DBoys average = $160
CM average = $200

JG with extra 9.6v and smart charger = $190
DBoys with extra 9.6v and smart charger = $210
CM with only 9.6v and smart charger = $200