Squad integrity ingame?

[Fubujubu]

tried a little thing that seemed to work well. Say theres 4 of ya and you start getting shot at. you loose two guys. when you loose a third the last remaining living guy walks off too. This way one guy isnt left alone and theres no searching for him once the other three respawn. This also allows all of you to load up again and come out as one full force.

[McKee]

It is the squad leaders responsibility to constantly be setting RV points. If you don't have medic rules and its a traditional "go back to spawn come back", instruct your troops to stay at the RV until the squad can reorg. As Brian said, always reorg after an assault or when casualties start mounting. The section member should make every effort to be aware of the location of his section, and try to stay with them at all times. This means not fucking off on your own to rambo, or go to the safe zone (or tim hortons) without telling anyone. This is my biggest pet peev:, when you're leading a squad and your 4 random dudes just fucked off by themselves and got lost. As much as it is the squad leaders responsibility to maintain cohesion, the section member must show discipline in sticking with his squad and following orders. This is airsoft not the military, so trying to command untrained civilians can be frustrating.

As has been stated, 2 I/Cs need to be in comms with the commander and have their head in the game. Most section level tactics require splitting into two groups to have a support and assault element, so you need to be able to effectively split up and still work as one unit. The squad leader at a minimum must be in comms with the commander, but dont rely on radios. Have RV points and SOPs like "respawn with a buddy" or "wait at the RV for reorg". If you have to detach members of the squad to leave them in a location, give them a contingency plan and a location to meet up if he doesn't hear from you for awhile.


At the end of the day, comms are nice but SOPs and some semblance of discipline will help you the most, regardless of respawning rules.

[Grizzly0679]

Originally Posted by m102404

IMO...

From overall C&C for a side...down to each squad member...the SOPs should be well known (and understood, and accepted) well before. If guys are well on the ball all that's needed is a quick briefing at the game...if they're random individuals it might be a lot harder. Best thing to do is to split up the random individuals and tag them along into a squad of guys who have things worked out already.

Since each person on a squad knows the SOPs...then when they take a loss there's a way to check in with everyone, a way to quickly assess how you're doing (ammo, strength, etc...) and a decision point if you can continue or have to GTFO and regroup.

If a number of small squads are working together (or even in the same area) they might join together until things get sorted out.

So far as having guys link back up it's always a good SOP to never have a single guy go anywhere. Dead guys can head back to respawn together...live guys can head out together to regroup. A little bit of C&C can go a long way....linking guys back up with their squads, tagging them into other squads for a bit until they can hook back up, etc..

Everyone having a radio is a good thing...95% of the guys should be doing nothing but listening anyways.

Not having a plan/SOP...letting guys go off on their own...not having a way to communicate....that's the perfect combo to have guys go off and never hook back up with their squad.

That said...that all works in "milsims" and not really in an all day skirmish with a bunch of random individuals. If you've got random individuals...or even little groups of guys who don't know what's what...then tag them with other groups who do. It'll probably be a much better day for everyone.

I like your style. Tactics should be practiced outside official games so you don't have to waste energy micro-managing your squad mates. Obviously there will be times to tell them what to do (e.g. Line up for a door breach, start flanking left, etc...) but if we're fighting in a forest, and there are 3 guys cramped up around me in a firefight, I really shouldn't have to tell them to spread out.

I tend to gravitate toward leadership positions in life but to be honest I actually prefer following orders. I've always considered myself a good person to watch someone's back because I'll place more importance on their survival than mine, especially if they're a good shooter - I'll do anything to keep them alive and taking out the enemy.

As for leaders...I guess each man will inevitably lead differently since it's not like we all go through the same leadership course, and I'm ok with that - I'm playing this to have fun, really - but I despise "leaders" who put their guys in harms way knowing they might get taken out.

For me if I was leading, I would never ask my guys to do something I wouldn't do myself. There's no "I" in Team! (There is a "ME" but no one likes a smart ass)

[JamesAllan]

Offering the opposite point of view...
As a new player, I find it super frustrating to respawn and then trek across the field searching for my squad - a term I use loosely. I don't have a team, and I plan on buying a radio but I don't know if the investment will be wasted. I'm sure there's a thread somewhere for buying radios - not the point.
This weekend, when I got tagged, a couple more senior players hunkered down and said they'd wait for me where they were. We'd made some good progress together, and I thought it was a nice gesture. They got that I was new, and would likely wind up wandering lone wolf, frustrated and likely as not to shoot a teammate.
Thank you, good sirs.

[Dirtbag]

Sorry I completely disagree, get your stuff together. A live man in field who has eyes on a section of the field WHERE YOU GOT SHOT is an incredibly valuable asset. He should not be leaving just because the rest of squad is dead.

What you are going give up a section of the battlefield because your teammates got killed and you want to stay together.

Dig in observe and report, regroup with your squad when they respawn. Or stay put and continue to report if it is of more value. Knowing where , how many and what the enemy is doing has real value, far more than keeping a squad together.

And by the way comms are critical, I spend a great deal of my time doing recon. With scattered sniper teams on at least 2 occasions we knew every move the enemy made as they made it. And reported using radio,those things are not fashion accessories.

[whisper_kill]

Keep it simple and learn the basics.

I rarely see a squad or group set rally points on the move... one of the most fundamental AND critical SOPs out there. They are super useful and will help you rally up.

The situation will most often dictate the action. Squad of 5 loses 3... you may withdraw, you may hunker down and observe, you may fight on. You have to have faith in your leader and follow them whether you agree or not. Otherwise, you are not an asset, you are a liability to the group.

As for the methodology to 'hooking back up'. Get on your squad channel. Communicate with your guys and direct them to an RP that makes sense. Yes, this may involve some walking. Sorry. But immersing yourself in what you are doing and the bigger picture will help you enjoy the game on a deeper level. Don't look at it as humping it all over the field, look at it as medivac'd out, patched up and now you're tasked with a stealthy re-insertion to hook up with your brothers in arms.

Have fun out there!

[Trev140_0]

I cant believe I stumbled on this post. Its like someone was watching the game we just played!

The field we are at now is severely grown in. We have trenches, 5 foot high grass, trees make it severely dark etc,

Well from reading this, it has just become clear why the game we were playing up to only a few weeks now are having serious issues.

Its because if one team has a solid communication and idea of the field and the other team doest, its game over.

I recall being pinned in a location trying to communicate with a few of my other team mates we were with and could not see them 20 feet away from me. They did not have radios.

got ugly when the friendly fire started. Was funny I tried to identify each team as best as possiblem and green , but I can tell you there was limited visability at each team could have had pink too too's on and you would have seen jack shit.

This was all about communication and without that, forget it.

I am considering banning the radios on both sides to prevent an imballance. Not sure yet.

[whisper_kill]

I don't think banning radios is the solution. People need to consider adding a radio to their kit. It really is an important piece of kit and critical to tactical Milsim style airsoft.

[Trev140_0]

I agree, was just trying to take the easy way out.

The hard way is convincing people of the importance. I recall looking at the guys I was with in one area, dead silent in the woods, hearing some info in my ear piece, and looking at them 20 feet away drift off into the wrong direction. (they had no radios and I could not say "psst hey, OVER THERE TWO ENEMY" (and not give our position away.

kind of a pisser, but I get it, making the whole field as shit show does not fix it.

[HackD]

Originally Posted by Trev140_0

I agree, was just trying to take the easy way out.

The hard way is convincing people of the importance. I recall looking at the guys I was with in one area, dead silent in the woods, hearing some info in my ear piece, and looking at them 20 feet away drift off into the wrong direction. (they had no radios and I could not say "psst hey, OVER THERE TWO ENEMY" (and not give our position away.

kind of a pisser, but I get it, making the whole field as shit show does not fix it.

Even if both teams are using radios, both teams have to be using them effectively to make a difference/make it competitive.

I've been carrying a radio since mid season last year.. and frankly it's been just a piece of equipment fluff, by and large, since some on the team that i'm usually on don't carry them, and those that do, really don't know how to use them effectively.

Your field has two teams that are lop-sided by nature - not intentionally of course, it's just the way things have run/worked out so far. Tans have learned to work as a team, with the core having very effective vocal direction, compliance, and radio discipline. The Op-for team, of which i've played on for three games (very much on the periphery) is basically a team comprised of 'others'.. all others that have attended the games, but haven't really worked/practiced closely together to make the team-mileu work. They/we might have a common goal, but my observation has been that the common goal is uncoordinated and unchanneled. The team members do go for the common goal in smaller groups, or as individuals, but there is no cohesiveness, which is a force-multiplier - of which Tan team has so effectively demonstrated. Radio comm's are simply an effective tool to the end means of cohesiveness.

In other words, i got no answers for ya, just an observation .. I'm not sure that even if all people on Op-for team got on board for radio comm's, they'd be able to use them effectively, at this point.

Still enjoy the games though!

[Trev140_0]

Thanks HackD

Being on the Op team with the other I can totally see what you are saying. That said as an organizer I have to adjust the games to ensure they are even. Even meaning they are evenly matched, equipped, etc. I am glad you pointed this out as its tough to see this from the "weeds".

I am going to re think this to ballance the next games out to offset this handycap.

Cheers

Trevor

[Brian McIlmoyle]

The army uses simple methods to enhance squad cohesion.

they number everyone off , and then you always have the same position in the field.

for airsofting there is no need to use anything other than 2 simple formations..

Column .. for moving

and Line for attacking, holding, observing.

when you arrive at the game.. shake out your gear.. and get ready.. and the 1st thing to do is find a buddy to work with for the day ..

then that group of 2 find another group of 2 to work with, then that group of 2 find another group of 2 .. and so on till you have 8 or 10 guys ..

pick one guy to be the boss and another guy to help him out.

number everyone off .. so everyone knows their position in the column and the line.

run it dry a couple of times just walking through in the safe zone..

Then hit the field..

Radios a good.. but if you have your squad set up and numbered off .. you can start pretty quickly figuring out how to communicate in the squad without them.

[whisper_kill]

^ Going back to the core problem... radios are pretty much essential kit for "re-integrating" killed/lost players into the squad. Brian's suggestion is providing you specifics to what I had previously mentioned... simplicity and basic SOPs are where it's at! Let's face it, the vast majority of us airsofters are "part-time wannabe's"... and not professionals as much as we'd like to think we are.

Now go out there and practice this stuff (seriously... try it at the next game and keep trying until it makes sense)... and have fun!

[Six By Ten]

Ya Trev, the radios are a key part of us seeing the big picture, finding out when and where thr enemy is moving. In contact however, most commands are either verbal or hand signals. We get loud very quickly once BBs start flying, at which point radios are used primarily to pass along GRITs to teammates not in the immediate vicinity. The other factor is using radios effectively, as Hackd mentioned, having a radio is just a prop unless the whole team knows how they work. Fully half of my section is not cleared to broadcast on the radio unless theres an extremely vital piece of intel or theur team leader is down. Most guys just listen.

At Hill 437 having 242 and DC on one team does unbalance things its true. The two teams have been playing together pretty well every month or more since last summer.

The solution is definately not to ban radios. Not only would that be counterproductive to the type of play we encourage, it honestly wouldnt change the outcome much. DC played all last summer without proper radio comms. Instead, splitting the teams differently, and actually getting the green to train outside of the five minute pow wow pregame will change things.

[Trev140_0]

Ya Roger,

The banning of the radio comment was a reach. In case of emergency "break glass"

It is definately not the answer. Like ammo caps or banning laser.

As we discussed we will be reballancing and why I really have a huge respect for you guys. You really do want to encourage a great fight and will do anything to adjust for that.

As we talked, we will re ballance F242, Karma you, newer players etc to beef the battles up.

End result should be spreading around the knowledge. Espacially since all the guys coming are not thinking they are "God" and truely want to get stronger.

We have a natural enviroment here we need to exploit. This is it!

cheers.

Trev

PS sorry for the thread hijack, but this really did help our field out in my opinion.