First Airsoft Rifle Purchase! (PolarStar DMR?)

[PandaAirsoft]

Hello, I'm from the Vancouver region of BC, new to airsoft and have decided to purchase my own rifle, with a soft capped budget of $1000 CAD. Never built, upgraded or taken apart any airsoft gun before, but after a little research, I understand the basic mechanics.

Looking for performance and efficiency above all else and, I'm planning on getting a rifle that can fit all roles so, PolarStar FE based rifles seems to be the best system for that as it can easily adjust to different circumstances. Also, I'm absolutely not looking for anything that has blow back right now. For performance and efficiency, noise and recoil should be reduced as much as possible. Ideally, all energy should be directed at propelling the BB with minimal loss to re-chambering the next round.

With the ~$1000, I want to get a DMR capable of maximum precision(or as close as possible), and an airstock as the HPA supply. I'm not a fan of having the rifle attached to me by a hose. I'll look into getting a short upper receiver and barrel later on for CQB, DMR first.

Where would be the most affordable place to purchase this, either locally or online? Best I've found is a PR-15, from;
http://www.mach1airsoft.com/product/...14-5-tactical/
But, its not in stock right now.

Should I order it from USA? Seeing as I want mine to have an airstock(an HPA tank for a gunstock, which no true firearm would have), it shouldn't have import problems right?
Clearly it isn't, "any device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, a firearm", if it obviously operates on compressed gas. Also, it's capable of firing >366fps.

PS,
I'm also thinking of maybe getting a G&G CM16, as a backup. How is it on FPS and precision? I've been seeing conflicting opinions. Is it worth getting another rifle as backup? Should I go for it?
I was planning on posting in the Newbie section but, it specifically states not to ask about importing in that section.

[Dustin_d]

Airstock is $400 CAD new. 13ci Tanks are around $70-$80

There will be a few $100 in upgrades to do if you want top notch efficiency/reliability
(red poppet /nozzle, lightning banjo)
Barrel and hopup are stock VFC ones so might wanna upgrade those.
always buy a few extra wire harnesses cuz they WILL break

[PandaAirsoft]

Originally Posted by Dustin_d

Airstock is $400 CAD new. 13ci Tanks are around $70-$80

There will be a few $100 in upgrades to do if you want top notch efficiency/reliability
(red poppet /nozzle, lightning banjo)
Barrel and hopup are stock VFC ones so might wanna upgrade those.
always buy a few extra wire harnesses cuz they WILL break

https://www.milsig.ca/milsig-accesso...hs-milsig-p-84
Milsig has their own branded airstock for a reasonable price right now. Though it is out of stock.

Yeah, I know the prebuilt ones still need to be upgraded. But, where should I buy the rifle in the first place?

[danhay]

The best price I have found for a V2 FE in Canada is Andy's Airsoft:

http://andysairsoft.ca/opencart/inde...product_id=393

If you can take apart an AEG and replace the gearbox (not difficult - plenty of online guides avaiable with a little Google-fu), you can perform the installation yourself. This gives you the option of using any old body (as in purchase a junker and gut the internals).

Realize that when ordering from the USA, after paying shipping and customs you will be paying the same if not more than if purchased directly from a Canadian vendor. Case in point; the V2 FE is $470 USD from Amped Airsoft which is $635 CDN after exchange alone ($1 CDN = $ .74 US).

Edit:
Buy you batteries from Hobby King (select the US E or W warehouse as LiPos will not ship from overseas anymore):

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...lipo-pack.html

I've seen these things marked up as much as 800% at airsoft shops.

[PandaAirsoft]

Originally Posted by danhay

The best price I have found for a V2 FE in Canada is Andy's Airsoft:

http://andysairsoft.ca/opencart/inde...product_id=393

If you can take apart an AEG and replace the gearbox (not difficult - plenty of online guides avaiable with a little Google-fu), you can perform the installation yourself. This gives you the option of using any old body (as in purchase a junker and gut the internals).

Realize that when ordering from the USA, after paying shipping and customs you will be paying the same if not more than if purchased directly from a Canadian vendor. Case in point; the V2 FE is $470 USD from Amped Airsoft which is $635 CDN after exchange alone ($1 CDN = $ .74 US).

Edit:
Buy you batteries from Hobby King (select the US E or W warehouse as LiPos will not ship from overseas anymore):

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...lipo-pack.html

I've seen these things marked up as much as 800% at airsoft shops.

I'm sure I can figure out how to install an FE into an AEG but, VFC AEG's or any other rifle with quality externals are quite expensive >$500. I don't currently have an AEG to swap with. Would it not be cheaper to purchase a prebuilt PR-15, instead of buying an AEG and an FE, then doing a swap?

[Kos-Mos]

Originally Posted by PandaAirsoft

https://www.milsig.ca/milsig-accesso...hs-milsig-p-84
Milsig has their own branded airstock for a reasonable price right now. Though it is out of stock.

Yeah, I know the prebuilt ones still need to be upgraded. But, where should I buy the rifle in the first place?

That is for a paintball Tippmann A5...
Won't work for an airsoft converted HPA.

[PandaAirsoft]

Originally Posted by Kos-Mos

That is for a paintball Tippmann A5...
Won't work for an airsoft converted HPA.

You're kidding me :banghead:

How did you figure that btw? It doesn't specifically say what it's compatible with.

[Kos-Mos]

Originally Posted by PandaAirsoft

You're kidding me :banghead:

How did you figure that btw? It doesn't specifically say what it's compatible with.

The two pins are for MP5-style stocks... that's what Tippmann uses on their A5.

[ThunderCactus]

Dont expect any stock guns to have impressive range or accuracy.
Just pick a gun that's upgradeable. In your case if you want a polarstar, probably get a VFC since (as i recall) theyre the best compatible.

Dont worry about barrel length or anything; a cqbr will shoot just as far and accurately as an m16, but its easier for someone to stabilize the m16 to be accurate at long range.

[PandaAirsoft]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Dont expect any stock guns to have impressive range or accuracy.
Just pick a gun that's upgradeable. In your case if you want a polarstar, probably get a VFC since (as i recall) theyre the best compatible.

Dont worry about barrel length or anything; a cqbr will shoot just as far and accurately as an m16, but its easier for someone to stabilize the m16 to be accurate at long range.

I see. After doing some more research, I'm starting to feel like my funds are insufficient for what I'm looking for. A new stock VFC is just too pricey for me to gut out for my build.

I read that 455mm is the optimal length for precision. 363mm is well under but, assuming my aim is as steady as a vice clamp, what do you think is the optimal length? Surely there is a "too short", as a 0mm barrel is too short.

[Crowin]

If you like HPA check out these guys. Their engines just as good as polarstar.
https://blackblitzairsoft.myshopify....ns/hpa-product

[ThunderCactus]

Step 1 of building an amazing, long range HPA airsoft gun: dont listen to anything about hop and barrel on hpa forums.

There hasnt been really any REAL testing on the minimum length. But even a 90mm barrel in a pistol will stabilize a BB. Some pistols have 6" groupings beyond 160ft, but this fact is often overlooked since its so damn hard for a person to actually shoot a 6" group beyond 160ft without bracing the pistol really well.
But if you have the same ideal hopup and muzzle energy on a 200mm, 455mm, and 650mm barrel, i would be downright shocked if you could notice a difference in accuracy.
The key function of the barrel is to stabilize the BB once it leaves the hopup. Beyond the point of stabilization, the BB can then only be DE stabilized.
Barrel bore and length are basically meaningless in terms of range or accuracy. As long as you're achieving consistently the same muzzle energy.
The only things that really affect a barrel are the quality and the cleanliness.

The only real barrel length testing that was done was to find out the optimal length by means of air volume for a full length cylinder. But that really doesn't mean anything.

Bottom line is, the longer the barrel is, the more volume it needs (for aeg), and the more susceptible it will be to accuracy loss due to fouling.
Volume for barrel length isn't critical on hpa since you're just trading air volume for air pressure as you get shorter. But avoid super wide bores (anything over 6.13) as it just wastes air volume for no benefit at all.
Choices are usually 6.03 prometheus and 6.05 pdi, not because of the bore size, but because they're the two highest quality barrels on the market.

[PandaAirsoft]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Step 1 of building an amazing, long range HPA airsoft gun: dont listen to anything about hop and barrel on hpa forums.

There hasnt been really any REAL testing on the minimum length. But even a 90mm barrel in a pistol will stabilize a BB. Some pistols have 6" groupings beyond 160ft, but this fact is often overlooked since its so damn hard for a person to actually shoot a 6" group beyond 160ft without bracing the pistol really well.
But if you have the same ideal hopup and muzzle energy on a 200mm, 455mm, and 650mm barrel, i would be downright shocked if you could notice a difference in accuracy.
The key function of the barrel is to stabilize the BB once it leaves the hopup. Beyond the point of stabilization, the BB can then only be DE stabilized.
Barrel bore and length are basically meaningless in terms of range or accuracy. As long as you're achieving consistently the same muzzle energy.
The only things that really affect a barrel are the quality and the cleanliness.

The only real barrel length testing that was done was to find out the optimal length by means of air volume for a full length cylinder. But that really doesn't mean anything.

Bottom line is, the longer the barrel is, the more volume it needs (for aeg), and the more susceptible it will be to accuracy loss due to fouling.
Volume for barrel length isn't critical on hpa since you're just trading air volume for air pressure as you get shorter. But avoid super wide bores (anything over 6.13) as it just wastes air volume for no benefit at all.
Choices are usually 6.03 prometheus and 6.05 pdi, not because of the bore size, but because they're the two highest quality barrels on the market.

I thoughta good hop was the most important for precision and the best barrel for HPA DMR's is the ORGA 6.23, no?

Why do people say 455mm is the optimal length, if as you're saying 200mm would be the same? I would prefer a shorter barrel if they preform identically.

Btw, what do you think of this barrel?
http://www.evike.com/products/31390/

[PandaAirsoft]

Originally Posted by Crowin

If you like HPA check out these guys. Their engines just as good as polarstar.
https://blackblitzairsoft.myshopify....ns/hpa-product

I'm not really interested in Daytona. They use more air and has considerably more recoil and noise than polarstars.

[ThunderCactus]

This is longer than I was hoping it would be...

That barrel looks like matrix is trying to fool people into thinking it has anything to do with prometheus/laylax. It's a marketing scam for a shitty barrel.
As far as anyone great guntech here is concerned, there are only 2 top end barrels to choose from; promtheus 6.03 and PDI 6.05

If you want fairly similar performance, the madbull stainless barrels actually are pretty good. DON'T get the aluminum ones though, they perform well but they can scratch easily. The $20 you save on the aluminum barrel doesn't mean crap if you have to buy a new $30 barrel after a year.

The "optimal length barrel" thing largely comes from people that have no fucking clue what they're talking about. Big on empirical evidence and totally improper testing. These are the guys that will upgrade from a 300mm stock barrel to a 455mm prometheus with a flat hop, see that they get an extra 150ft of range, and attribute all their gains to the barrel instead of the thing actually doing all the work; the flat hop. This was a popular theory way back in the dark ages of 2008 when we had no real clue how airsoft guns really worked.

The HPA facebook crowd (and US forums in general) is *THE* worst for pseudoscience and empirical evidence.
The 6.23 barrels only accomplish one thing, and that's wasting air.
There is literally nothing to be gained going from a 6.13 to a 6.23. Nothing.
The wider bore doesn't make you more accurate, it just reduces how fast the barrel fouls. But the difference in fouling between a 6.13 and 6.23 is nothing. 6.13 is already a huge bore to begin with.
Getting a bit technical, there's a point of diminishing returns where the gap between the BB and the barrel is SO large that it creates unstable turbulence. The longer the barrel, the lower your air pressure and the greater your air volume will be to accelerate the BB up to speed over that distance. Lower air pressure means lower centering force. Lowering centering force means greater inconsistency in accuracy. And at 6.23 that's a lot of air escaping past the BB on it's way down the barrel, so you need a LOT of air volume.
I know a few HPA guys that were suckered into thinking 6.23 barrels somehow magically increased range or accuracy. After a few months they all changed back to prometheus 6.03s for vastly improved air efficiency because there was zero difference in performance.

As stated in my "how airsoft guns work" thread, there is no difference in accuracy between a 6.01, 6.03, 6.08, 6.13, or 6.23 barrel. Only different rates of fouling.
Same goes from differing barrel lengths.
If you're an LMG shooting over 6000 rounds of BBs in a day, you'll want a 6.13
If you're a DMR and 300 rounds lasts you all day, you're not going to see any problems running a 6.03 or 6.05

Once the BB has been stabilized in the center of the barrel (this occurs in the first 70mm or so, exactly where depends on a few factors) it can only ever then become DEstabilized. So if the BB gets stabilized at say the 60mm mark, then having an extra 400mm of barrel length to travel down isn't going to make any difference. It's just 400mm where something could then go wrong. That being said, you still need some length of barrel to actually accelerate the BB up to speed, but in HPA and AEGs, getting to 420 fps really doesn't take much barrel length at all.

In my own M14 scout, I built the barrel group to make a point. It has a 300mm 6.05 barrel (normally uses a 463mm) and shoots just as well or better than any other full length M14 with a 510mm barrel. Here's the crazy part; with the suppressor mounted on the end, there's actually more empty outer barrel than there is inner barrel. 305mm of empty space from the end of the inner to the end of the suppressor.

There's only 2 reasons to run a longer inner barrel:
-there's nothing to support the inner barrel until it reaches a certain point in the outer barrel
-you need to convert the excessive air volume of a bolt action rifle into muzzle energy via joule creep

And there are only 2 reasons to run a widebore:
-because you're planning to shoot an amount of BBs measured in kilograms
-as a spare barrel group to drastically lower your fps to CQB limits without touching the mechbox or settings

So if you're building a DMR, best to just stick with a prometheus 6.03 or PDI 6.05 (or madbull stainless, i forgot the bore, if you want something a bit cheaper), in whatever length you like. But don't be afraid to run a 300mm barrel.