Fight club custom

[Ricochet]

I should have clarified a little more. I had a 2007 M4 and ended up smashing it on the ground at Cold Front II, when I tripped. I got my hands on a gen-1 M16 and had it converted to be compatible with 2007 plus parts. I put the internals from my 2007 into it, and a brand new 2008 VUK kit. My 490 motor finally parished after a season and bit, and has now had the Tack mod like my old 480 did. I bought my first PTW in 2006, and I still have many original parts from it in my current one. So other than the original gun, my costs have been fairly low. Everything breaks or wears out eventually. But when you use expensive equipment, the repairs replacement cost more.

Here's a list of major fixes in the last six years;

- 480 motor mod $200 (motor died 3 months after purchase)
- replacement lower receiver $270 (this is what broke apart when I biffed it)
- VUK $330 (motor died when I smashed my gun on the ground; but it was already four years old. My boards fried when I used an oven to dry them out after Mason relic II, but they were also four years old)
- replacement gold cylinder $190 (I dented the casing of my first one by jamming a BB into it)
- selector switch board $25 (old one still worked, I just bought it with the VUK)
- 490 motor mod $220 (motor died this last June, and was installed in April a year prior)

Total cost is approx: $1235
Approx: $206 a year on fixing my PTW

That's not a lot considering the performance, or that my gun is almost never down. Not to mention a lot of that damage was my fault, not thing wearing out. I'd say that if you looked after your weapon, and expected to have to do the motor mod soon after purchase, you'd have few issues.

When Swatt13's gun was done up after years of use and abuse, it was horrific. I found metal parts, shattered BBs and grass inside of his magazines. Macguyver I believe found a stick and some other goodies inside his mechbox. It was still going strong.

PTWs are a high cost right off the line. So every part, fix, and accessory is expensive as well. They aren't for those that have a tight budget. If you sold your soul to own one; look out! It "will" cost you a small fortune in the future.

If I could change two things about them; firstly and obviously the jackasses that assemble/manufacture the motors, and secondly the receiver. The receivers are fairly tough, but I've seen a few break. It's always in the same spot right by the grip and takedown pin.

I still wouldn't run any other electric system. My ancient PTW can propel a 0.28g BB well over 300 feet (that was measured and consistent distance using a gold cylinder and the MacGuyver hop-up mod). The evolutions can do that with a slightly better grouping (that's stock, right out of the box).

I've seen some very nice custom built AEGs. The last one we had was a $1700 build. A Systema Revolution gear box, G&P motor, MOSFET, 11.1v lipo, custom hopup with a hard concave bucking, Prometheus inner barrel, etc, etc. The gun chrono'ed at 410 FPS consistently, and was nowhere near the distance or grouping of the PTW. We used BB Bastard 0.25g, 0.28g, and 0.30g rounds. Although it was a performer, it wasn't the same. We had better luck with a WE M14 gas open bolt with a full RA-Tech internal upgrade. It shot 413 FPS, and still didn't match the performance of a PTW.

So if FCC wants to survive, their motors will have to outlast a Systema one that's been modified, and their boards will have to tougher than the stock ones. It really is as simple as that.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

I should have clarified a little more. I had a 2007 M4 and ended up smashing it on the ground at Cold Front II, when I tripped. I got my hands on a gen-1 M16 and had it converted to be compatible with 2007 plus parts. I put the internals from my 2007 into it, and a brand new 2008 VUK kit. My 490 motor finally parished after a season and bit, and has now had the Tack mod like my old 480 did. I bought my first PTW in 2006, and I still have many original parts from it in my current one. So other than the original gun, my costs have been fairly low. Everything breaks or wears out eventually. But when you use expensive equipment, the repairs replacement cost more.

Here's a list of major fixes in the last six years;

- 480 motor mod $200 (motor died 3 months after purchase)
- replacement lower receiver $270 (this is what broke apart when I biffed it)
- VUK $330 (motor died when I smashed my gun on the ground; but it was already four years old. My boards fried when I used an oven to dry them out after Mason relic II, but they were also four years old)
- replacement gold cylinder $190 (I dented the casing of my first one by jamming a BB into it)
- selector switch board $25 (old one still worked, I just bought it with the VUK)
- 490 motor mod $220 (motor died this last June, and was installed in April a year prior)

Total cost is approx: $1235
Approx: $206 a year on fixing my PTW

That's not a lot considering the performance, or that my gun is almost never down. Not to mention a lot of that damage was my fault, not thing wearing out. I'd say that if you looked after your weapon, and expected to have to do the motor mod soon after purchase, you'd have few issues.

When Swatt13's gun was done up after years of use and abuse, it was horrific. I found metal parts, shattered BBs and grass inside of his magazines. Macguyver I believe found a stick and some other goodies inside his mechbox. It was still going strong.

PTWs are a high cost right off the line. So every part, fix, and accessory is expensive as well. They aren't for those that have a tight budget. If you sold your soul to own one; look out! It "will" cost you a small fortune in the future.

If I could change two things about them; firstly and obviously the jackasses that assemble/manufacture the motors, and secondly the receiver. The receivers are fairly tough, but I've seen a few break. It's always in the same spot right by the grip and takedown pin.

I still wouldn't run any other electric system. My ancient PTW can propel a 0.28g BB well over 300 feet (that was measured and consistent distance using a gold cylinder and the MacGuyver hop-up mod). The evolutions can do that with a slightly better grouping (that's stock, right out of the box).

I've seen some very nice custom built AEGs. The last one we had was a $1700 build. A Systema Revolution gear box, G&P motor, MOSFET, 11.1v lipo, custom hopup with a hard concave bucking, Prometheus inner barrel, etc, etc. The gun chrono'ed at 410 FPS consistently, and was nowhere near the distance or grouping of the PTW. We used BB Bastard 0.25g, 0.28g, and 0.30g rounds. Although it was a performer, it wasn't the same. We had better luck with a WE M14 gas open bolt with a full RA-Tech internal upgrade. It shot 413 FPS, and still didn't match the performance of a PTW.

So if FCC wants to survive, their motors will have to outlast a Systema one that's been modified, and their boards will have to tougher than the stock ones. It really is as simple as that.

My first experience with them was their very first PTW, it lasted 3 games the replacement lasted a bit longer at about two months before I accidentally drop the rifle, cracked the metal body and the gun stoped working, the replacement for that didn't fare out to well either. The M733 replacement was fine until I use a black cylinder and the piston somehow got stripped clean. After all that and about $5K later I sweared off PTW, then I got back in after seein Tac Modded rifle, again issues with the boards etc. up to my most recent 2012 both the Evolution and non Evolution model, The Evolution model worked for about 7 mags before it got too hot to hold and eventually died not taking anymore chances I decide to go Full FCC and ditch my remaining PTWs and only keeping the TW5 which work like a charm.

Aside from burning up boards, ECU, motors the TW from systema is a very nice design how ever the finicky wiring and board plus the ongoing motor issue really put some people off I have some Stock King arms AEG that will work no matter what condition or weather I'm playing in but my $2.5K plus TW will have to sit in a gun case. FCC have taken a perfectly design TW and make it work as it should be out of the box and I'm trully thankfull for that.

[Ricochet]

Wow, thats bad luck. The rack gear in the black cylinder shredding can be caused by two things. Either running a Systema 12v battery with it, or stripping down your cylinder for cleaning/rebuild, and not lock tightening the screw back in. If not that then you've had some bad luck. My team has been running PTWs for seven years, and we have collectively around twelve to fifteen of them; including a TW5.

I personally have never seen a "board issue". I've seen boards wear out due to age, or people fry them by not taking care them (me); i.e. Using heat to dry them, not drying them after playing in the rain, leaving your battery plugged in for a couple months, using the wrong type of battery, experimenting on them, you name it. I clean my boards with an air duster can after playing in wet or moist conditions, I disconnect the battery immediately if I think they've gotten wet, and I wear latex gloves when handling them. All the boards I've had or seen lasted at least a few years before they wore out, or someone fried them. I have however heard of a fette going, but rarely.

First gen is usually gross with anything. It sounds like you've been tainted by the originals. Unfortunately the newer ones still have the damn motor issue. And out of the four we purchased; two of them had motor issues within the first couple of months. We've since had them all properly wound, and so far so good. I've heard from more than one person that the new motors get very hot. I haven't heard that they've been too hot to hold though.

We beat our guns up pretty good, and I'm impressed. The only issue I have is the strength of the receiver behind the grip. I've seen two break there, and two crack there. A friend of mine bought a steel body for his, and I'd suggest that to anyone; but once again there is a significant cost. I'm very impressed with the new cylinders, hop-ups and inner barrels. They really improved the performance from great to greater.

You aren't the only one that's had issues though, so don't feel bad. I can attest that I've had exponentially more issues with AEGs; they're just cheap to fix.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

Wow, thats bad luck. The rack gear in the black cylinder shredding can be caused by two things. Either running a Systema 12v battery with it, or stripping down your cylinder for cleaning/rebuild, and not lock tightening the screw back in. If not that then you've had some bad luck. My team has been running PTWs for seven years, and we have collectively around twelve to fifteen of them; including a TW5.

I personally have never seen a "board issue". I've seen boards wear out due to age, or people fry them by not taking care them (me); i.e. Using heat to dry them, not drying them after playing in the rain, leaving your battery plugged in for a couple months, using the wrong type of battery, experimenting on them, you name it. I clean my boards with an air duster can after playing in wet or moist conditions, I disconnect the battery immediately if I think they've gotten wet, and I wear latex gloves when handling them. All the boards I've had or seen lasted at least a few years before they wore out, or someone fried them. I have however heard of a fette going, but rarely.

First gen is usually gross with anything. It sounds like you've been tainted by the originals. Unfortunately the newer ones still have the damn motor issue. And out of the four we purchased; two of them had motor issues within the first couple of months. We've since had them all properly wound, and so far so good. I've heard from more than one person that the new motors get very hot. I haven't heard that they've been too hot to hold though.

We beat our guns up pretty good, and I'm impressed. The only issue I have is the strength of the receiver behind the grip. I've seen two break there, and two crack there. A friend of mine bought a steel body for his, and I'd suggest that to anyone; but once again there is a significant cost. I'm very impressed with the new cylinders, hop-ups and inner barrels. They really improved the performance from great to greater.

You aren't the only one that's had issues though, so don't feel bad. I can attest that I've had exponentially more issues with AEGs; they're just cheap to fix.

In total I had about 9 PTW excluding the broken ones with as much as 6 at one time ranging from the 1st gen to the 2012, all with the exception of the Prime/Tac/DTT modded and my TW5 have issues, the Prime/Tac CQBR that I have was running so smooth for a year until the cable on the board snap (completely my fault). Comparing the amount of cash I drop to make a PTW worked like a charm vs going full FCC, I'm actually saving around $1000 plus all the time wasted which are priceless. I have no doubt that Systema design a great TW however like you said earlier it's the assholes who QC or assembled these things that should get swift kick in the balls.

[mcguyver]

Gen 1 M90 used a zinc-alloy rack gear. Same material that Marui used on their sector gears. They used to strip out all the time. After Gen 1, all rack gears are steel, and I have seen one with the first tooth stripped (just this week on a 2012 stainless M130 cylinder) and I have heard of a first tooth break.

I have a Celcius piston with a rack gear warped like a slithering snake. Cheap steel.

[Ricochet]

Keep us up to date on the FCC life span. That really is the only thing I'm personally curious about. Are the FCC optics sealed? There was some aftermarket ones that were, but I don't think they were FCC. We have a few rewound 7511 motors now, I'll let everyone know how long they last .....which could be years; "hopefully".

[frackz]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

I should have clarified a little more. I had a 2007 M4 and ended up smashing it on the ground at Cold Front II, when I tripped. I got my hands on a gen-1 M16 and had it converted to be compatible with 2007 plus parts. I put the internals from my 2007 into it, and a brand new 2008 VUK kit. My 490 motor finally parished after a season and bit, and has now had the Tack mod like my old 480 did. I bought my first PTW in 2006, and I still have many original parts from it in my current one. So other than the original gun, my costs have been fairly low. Everything breaks or wears out eventually. But when you use expensive equipment, the repairs replacement cost more.

Here's a list of major fixes in the last six years;

- 480 motor mod $200 (motor died 3 months after purchase)
- replacement lower receiver $270 (this is what broke apart when I biffed it)
- VUK $330 (motor died when I smashed my gun on the ground; but it was already four years old. My boards fried when I used an oven to dry them out after Mason relic II, but they were also four years old)
- replacement gold cylinder $190 (I dented the casing of my first one by jamming a BB into it)
- selector switch board $25 (old one still worked, I just bought it with the VUK)
- 490 motor mod $220 (motor died this last June, and was installed in April a year prior)

Total cost is approx: $1235
Approx: $206 a year on fixing my PTW

That's not a lot considering the performance, or that my gun is almost never down. Not to mention a lot of that damage was my fault, not thing wearing out. I'd say that if you looked after your weapon, and expected to have to do the motor mod soon after purchase, you'd have few issues.

When Swatt13's gun was done up after years of use and abuse, it was horrific. I found metal parts, shattered BBs and grass inside of his magazines. Macguyver I believe found a stick and some other goodies inside his mechbox. It was still going strong.

PTWs are a high cost right off the line. So every part, fix, and accessory is expensive as well. They aren't for those that have a tight budget. If you sold your soul to own one; look out! It "will" cost you a small fortune in the future.

If I could change two things about them; firstly and obviously the jackasses that assemble/manufacture the motors, and secondly the receiver. The receivers are fairly tough, but I've seen a few break. It's always in the same spot right by the grip and takedown pin.

I still wouldn't run any other electric system. My ancient PTW can propel a 0.28g BB well over 300 feet (that was measured and consistent distance using a gold cylinder and the MacGuyver hop-up mod). The evolutions can do that with a slightly better grouping (that's stock, right out of the box).

I've seen some very nice custom built AEGs. The last one we had was a $1700 build. A Systema Revolution gear box, G&P motor, MOSFET, 11.1v lipo, custom hopup with a hard concave bucking, Prometheus inner barrel, etc, etc. The gun chrono'ed at 410 FPS consistently, and was nowhere near the distance or grouping of the PTW. We used BB Bastard 0.25g, 0.28g, and 0.30g rounds. Although it was a performer, it wasn't the same. We had better luck with a WE M14 gas open bolt with a full RA-Tech internal upgrade. It shot 413 FPS, and still didn't match the performance of a PTW.

So if FCC wants to survive, their motors will have to outlast a Systema one that's been modified, and their boards will have to tougher than the stock ones. It really is as simple as that.

To date I have not had to replace a single part on my PTW's. I am sure its coming but thus far nothing.

Next time your cylinder get a dent on the outside just buy the outer tube. Cylinders for 2012 are now steel and you could just buy the steel tube as well so no more warping or dents.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by frackz

To date I have not had to replace a single part on my PTW's. I am sure its coming but thus far nothing.

Next time your cylinder get a dent on the outside just buy the outer tube. Cylinders for 2012 are now steel and you could just buy the steel tube as well so no more warping or dents.

Shush You know you just jinxed yourself right? Now the PTW demons going to get you. I've known guys who had PTW for years and not have issue but once they do it's like trying to plug 11 holes in a dam with ten fingers

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by wildcard

Shush You know you just jinxed yourself right? Now the PTW demons going to get you. I've known guys who had PTW for years and not have issue but once they do it's like trying to plug 11 holes in a dam with ten fingers

Nearly all of that comes down to misdiagnosis of a problem and inneffective repair.

You have to be thorough, and sometimes seemingly major problems have a minor fix and vice-versa. It is exceedingly rare to have mechanical issues in a gun that is built correctly by someone who can recognize when there are tolerance differences and account for it, not just shrug it off.

I have gotten so many of them where they were:

1) Kits that the owner/builder had trouble with, didn't do proper construction, had off-spec parts that affected performance or used a hammer and chisel to install an RIS (true story).

2) Factory-built guns that sustained damage (sometimes catastrophic and sometimes as minor as 1 loose screw) such that they were non-functional or suffered horrible performance. This damaged often came from user-installed components that were incompatible or improperly installed.

When it comes to installation of aftermarket parts, in this case clone manufacturers, these issues need to be addressed during installation. My current experience with FCC is limited to their motor, hop-up and a couple other small parts, not the complete gun.

I can tell you from past experience that Celcius has been less than stellar and their tolerances and parts quality is atrocious. I got a gun with the buffer tube cross threaded into a Systema lower. We all know that the factory lower is cast zinc alloy, and is not very stong. The stock started cross-threaded and the owner (also a Celcius dealer) continued to thread it in. It mashed up the flat threads on the tube, and when finished, the rear of the buffer tube sat 2"+ higher than at the receiver. I removed it, and upon inspection, noted that none of the threads in the receiver was even marred. I also kept his damaged cylinder components so I can show people how poor the quality and materials are between Celcius and Systema.

Everything I have seen thus far from FCC has been good, except the brush-hood end of the 2.5 motor. Their tolerance between the pinion gear and motor shaft is a little loose for my liking, and there have been reports of it loosening up over time, but a recent check by me after 7000 rounds has shown it to be solid.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

Nearly all of that comes down to misdiagnosis of a problem and inneffective repair.

You have to be thorough, and sometimes seemingly major problems have a minor fix and vice-versa. It is exceedingly rare to have mechanical issues in a gun that is built correctly by someone who can recognize when there are tolerance differences and account for it, not just shrug it off.

I have gotten so many of them where they were:

1) Kits that the owner/builder had trouble with, didn't do proper construction, had off-spec parts that affected performance or used a hammer and chisel to install an RIS (true story).

2) Factory-built guns that sustained damage (sometimes catastrophic and sometimes as minor as 1 loose screw) such that they were non-functional or suffered horrible performance. This damaged often came from user-installed components that were incompatible or improperly installed.

When it comes to installation of aftermarket parts, in this case clone manufacturers, these issues need to be addressed during installation. My current experience with FCC is limited to their motor, hop-up and a couple other small parts, not the complete gun.

I can tell you from past experience that Celcius has been less than stellar and their tolerances and parts quality is atrocious. I got a gun with the buffer tube cross threaded into a Systema lower. We all know that the factory lower is cast zinc alloy, and is not very stong. The stock started cross-threaded and the owner (also a Celcius dealer) continued to thread it in. It mashed up the flat threads on the tube, and when finished, the rear of the buffer tube sat 2"+ higher than at the receiver. I removed it, and upon inspection, noted that none of the threads in the receiver was even marred. I also kept his damaged cylinder components so I can show people how poor the quality and materials are between Celcius and Systema.

Everything I have seen thus far from FCC has been good, except the brush-hood end of the 2.5 motor. Their tolerance between the pinion gear and motor shaft is a little loose for my liking, and there have been reports of it loosening up over time, but a recent check by me after 7000 rounds has shown it to be solid.

I was tempted to cheapen out on a SCK kit after the slew of factory crap I got on their 1st gen PTW, Thank God Tony talked me out of it there seem to be where all the major issue from PTW is from their SCK kit but mind you that most of my issue was from a factory QC unit. I had a former teammate SCK built by Redwolf failed but the same person had the same kit built by Tony and it's still going strong with only 1 motor upgrade needed. I guess when it comes down to it is that people expectations on these toys are sometime too high, expectations such as bomb proof electronics or parts on a $2K toy that would last forever is still a dream and airsofter can dream. when compared to a regular AEG a solid PTW is still a way to go the tecnology advancement in recent years on airsoft products certainly let me enjoy the sports a whole lot more than before.

[kullwarrior]

Originally Posted by wildcard

I was tempted to cheapen out on a SCK kit after the slew of factory crap I got on their 1st gen PTW, Thank God Tony talked me out of it there seem to be where all the major issue from PTW is from their SCK kit but mind you that most of my issue was from a factory QC unit. I had a former teammate SCK built by Redwolf failed but the same person had the same kit built by Tony and it's still going strong with only 1 motor upgrade needed. I guess when it comes down to it is that people expectations on these toys are sometime too high, expectations such as bomb proof electronics or parts on a $2K toy that would last forever is still a dream and airsofter can dream. when compared to a regular AEG a solid PTW is still a way to go the tecnology advancement in recent years on airsoft products certainly let me enjoy the sports a whole lot more than before.

From what I understand SCK are stuff that didn't pass their QC for the factory built (where warranty covers the gun). As a result, they decided to put it in SCK (no warranty)

[Ricochet]

I as well have now disassembled a newer CTW to help a friend out. I'm incredibly unimpressed. When everything works, it shoots well (not as good as a PTW). But the inner design, and certain parts were dismal.

[wildcard]

While waiting for the Turkey fest to begin I had a chance to do some comparison with my friend DTT 2012 Evolution M4 Max, This is the result after comparison with a stock upper internal from Systema and another upper from FCC with DTT internals VS my FCC full custom.

- The 2012 has a higher pitch sound compared to the FCC
- The DTT Motor mods no doubt cured the temp issue that is plaguing the Systema 2012 stock Evolution model
- Range wise both the DTT hop up mods and the FCC are by far way better than stock even with the "improvement" Systema made.
- The tapered inner barrel in the stock 2012 evolution do nothing special, the normal tightbore FCC uses still outrange the stock, although the DTT Hop up mod on the other upper assembly did match the FCC accuracy and distance
- At full auto the stock Systema VS the FCC was all over the place, (It performed better with the DTT mod upper) at 50ft
- The Systema SS Cylinder is really nice even in my FCC, it did leave a nasty grease residue on my gearset after three mags worth of FA (why they use that cheap brownish grease still boggles my mind, what ever happen to the lighter grease they used to use?)

- just for the hell of it we tried the Evolution vs my TW5 (with DTT motor and hop up mod) using both the Blue Cylinder on each TW the TW5 excells over the Evolution in FA but when we swapped the upper to a normal barrel instead of the tapered version the Evolution fared a lot better at FA, So if you are in the process of getting a 2012 Evolution don't forget to get the motor and hop up mods from either DTT or Tack the differnce may sound minor but it put a lot of ommph in the performance.
- received some accesories from FCC for my long upper I'll post up pics of the "Zombie killer"

[kolumbo69]

Not sure who started the Myth that DTT is the lone Canadian distributer for FCC but Imperial Airsoft distributes their products as well.

Also I would like to point out DTT doesn't make the outer shells you keep talking about wildcard Rampo the mechanic at FCC makes them.

Just an update on their motors,shortened board I used them all summer long with no issues what so ever probably 50,000+ bb's through my gun. I tinker with my gun constantly so I use a combination of FCC hop with my own system which gives me the ability to over hop a .28

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by kolumbo69

Also I would like to point out DTT doesn't make the outer shells you keep talking about wildcard Rampo the mechanic at FCC makes them.

Just an update on their motors,shortened board I used them all summer long with no issues what so ever probably 50,000+ bb's through my gun. I tinker with my gun constantly so I use a combination of FCC hop with my own system which gives me the ability to over hop a .28

I always thought that DTT was the only distributor for FCC product in Canada, Chris (DTT) was actually recommended by Roger at FCC as the distributor in Canada.
What shell are you talkin about bud? if you are talking about mag shells I never said DTT makes them and I know about Rampo he makes and R&D a lot of the other FCC parts. I've went through roughly around 20 bags of bastard .25/.28/.30 and so far their hop up and everything else on the NST rifle is like what a PTW should have been. The only regrets I have is I was hesitant about their product early on due to soem bad reviews of PTW forum